Rifqa Madness II

Oh, come off it…

Background here. And more on Pastor Steve Hill here.

UPDATE: Meanwhile, a pastor who knows her from Ohio, named Jamal Jivanjee, tells us that “The Lord has used her to physically and spiritually heal people”.

36 Responses

  1. You are the prosecutor: working for the guy with the biggest stick.

    • Yeah right, I’m sure Clive James thinks the answer to the problem of honour killings is a cheesy band-wagon jumping, pulpit-chewing, opportunistic and histrionic evangelist using onion tears to rabble-rouse.

  2. “All women killed in cases of honour are prostitutes. I believe prostitutes deserve to die.”

    Abdul Karim Dughmi, the former Minister of Justice in Jordan, quoted in the Sunday Times Magazine, 8 July 2001

    Could one ever make it clearer?

    And it is the evangelist you take to task?

    That quote comes from a …uh…”man” who had as his primary role the interpretation and application of jordanian law in a just and equitable manner!

  3. A Jordanian has nothing to do with this case

    It isn’t the man’s ‘jordaniousness’ that I was pointing out (as though you didn’t know), but rather that this deeply misogynistic opinion on women was expressed by a man, the ex Minister of Jusitce, in what is considered the most moderate of all the islamic states.

    And so if that’s as good as it gets, then just imagine how bad it can get.

    There are many Islamic countries where stealing a goat will get you more time behind bars than the murder of a women.

    Jordan is one of those countries.

    It is that culture of misogyny that Rifka is fighting against.

    • if that’s as good as it gets, then just imagine how bad it can get

      But it’s not:

      Sixteen-year-old Zahra Ezzo died at the hospital last month after a brutal attack. But it was her brother who confessed to killing her – and her family who appointed him to carry out the murder.

      Some experts estimate that 200 to 300 honor killings like Zahra’s occur every year in Syria. Most receive little or no attention. But Zahra’s murder – in part because it happened in the capital and not a rural area – has compelled Syria’s grand mufti, cleric Ahmad Hassoun, to publicly condemn the crime, calling for the first time for the immediate protection of girls at risk and for legal reform on the basis that such crimes are un-Islamic. President Bashar al-Assad has also promised to find a solution.

      There’s still a long way to go, certainly, but the fact is that more urbanised and modernised yet still religious Muslims living in the Muslim world are calling for an end to the practice.

      But the idea that I must somehow collude with the view of Abdul Karim Dughmi because I can see through a clown like Steve Hill is so stupid it doesn’t really need a response.

    • Thats a nice deflection and symptomatic of the entire argument the right wing and the Christians and the anti-Islamics are putting forward in this case: that because some people on the other side of the world do not denounce it, Rifqa is going to get killed. Utter idiocy.

      First of all, this is not a case of an attempted honour killing, this is a case of a teenager rebelling against their parents and being brainwashed by an evangelist online.

      Think about that again: an evangelical pastor groomed an underage girl online to get her to run away from home, thereby plunging her family into the realm of extreme fear and worry about her well being. He kept her with him, secretly, against the law, yet no one will say anything against him. That alone is sickening, especially considering recent events regarding Evangelicals grooming girls and taking them to other states ( http://www.nzherald.co.nz/child-abuse/news/article.cfm?c_id=146&objectid=10586160&ref=rss ) And no, this wasnt a Jordanian, but someone pretty much like the man of God that groomed Rifqa to run away and didnt tell anyone.

      Secondly, there is no evidence that she will be the victim of an honour killing. She has been a Christian for 4 years and has been living with her family all that time. Her parents knew and just like any Christian parents that found out their child had converted to say, Islam, they were hurt and maybe even blamed themselves, but they didnt kill her.

      Thirdly, you want to talk about a culture of misogyny. Lets look at some quotes from Christians:

      http://fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=62215
      http://fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=63886
      http://fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=64100
      http://fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=64162
      http://fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=64248
      http://fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=64921
      http://fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=64976
      http://fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=64983
      http://fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=65218

      Besides all that and the various other misogynistic comments and actions we see in the US from Christians (Mormons, Quiverfull etc) and others (Cows being paraded on a podium with a number around their necks…oh sorry, I meant women….) let’s take a look at some interesting statistics:

      http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/intimate/victims.htm
      http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/intimates.htm
      http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_vic-crime-assault-victims
      http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_fem_pro-crime-females-prosecuted
      http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_vic-crime-rape-victims
      http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

      Interesting statistics. Seems a lot of people are murdered in Christian countries. Also seems that a lot of women are murdered by their spouses. Now lets look at the Bible:

      Having intercourse with a woman in her period
      If a man lies with a woman having her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has laid bare her flow and she has laid bare her flow of blood; both of them shall be cut off from their people. (Leviticus 20:18)

      For Bringing a Foreign Woman into the Camp
      . . . he went after the Israelite man into the tent, and pierced the two of them, the Israelite and the woman, through the belly. So the plague was stopped among the people of Israel. (Numbers 25:8)

      Adultery
      . . . both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)

      A Raped Woman Who Did Not Cry for Help
      . . . stone them to death, the young woman because she did not cry for help in the town and the man because he violated his neighbor’s wife. (Deuteronomy 22:24)

      Incest
      If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall be put to death; they have committed perversion, their blood is upon them. (Leviticus 20:12)

      Priests Daughter Fornicating
      When the daughter of a priest profanes herself through prostitution, she profanes her father; she shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9)

      Witchcraft
      You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live. (Exodus 22:18)

      And a couple which seem surprisingly ironic in this case:

      Disobedience to Parents
      They shall say to the elders of his town, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid. (Deuteronomy 21:20-21)

      Blasphemy
      One who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall be put to death . . . . (Leviticus 24:16)

      Family or Friends Who Invite You to Worship Another God
      If anyone secretly entices you–even if it is your brother, your father’s son or your mother’s son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend–saying, “Let us go worship other gods,” whom neither you nor your ancestors have known. . . . Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them. But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)

      Sacrificing to false gods
      Whoever sacrifices to any god, other than the LORD alone, shall be devoted to destruction. (Exodus 22:20)

      Kidnapping
      Whoever kidnaps a person . . . shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:16)

      A Prophet Speaking in the Name of Another God
      But any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, or who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak ? that prophet shall die.” (Deuteronomy 18:20)

      Death to a Whole City for Worshipping Other Gods
      . . . you shall put the inhabitants of that town to the sword, utterly destroying it and everything in it ? even putting its livestock to the sword. All of its spoil you shall gather into its public square; then burn the town and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It shall remain a perpetual ruin, never to be rebuilt. (Deuteronomy 13:15-16)

      So, if we were to go by your logic, and the logic of the pro-Christian Rifqa brigade, we would have to conclude that the women murdered in the USA alone are because they were adulterers or worshipped another God. After all, that is what the Bible commands, right? See what total bullshit that is? But that is exactly the kind of bullshit you are asking us to swallow. That is exactly the kind of bullshit the right wing and the anti-Islamic coalition that has setup around this case so they can “stick it to the Mooselimbs” are asking us to focus on instead of focusing on this case.

      I dont have much time and I dont think you will agree with my post as to why you are wrong and why the right wingers and evangelicals are wrong, but you are making such a far fetched sweeping generalization, that the only way I can show how stupid it is by acting just like you: Women being killed in Peru ( http://www.livinginperu.com/news/9045 ) therefore women arent safe in Christian homes. Strange though that these Evangelicals never did all this for those women being murdered because of the Bible….

  4. “Misogyny” is not the issue here. The Christian fundamentalists who have undertaken the glorious task of rescuing a maiden from the rapacious paws of bloodthirsty heathens cannot make any credible claim to be champions of womens’ rights themselves.
    For them, Rifqa is a battle-trophy, not a person. If they were so concerned for her safety, they could have taken her to a womens’ shelter, where women truly have rights..

  5. Hmm, my post showed up, with lots of spaces everywhere… lol

  6. Girls like Rifqa are murdered by Muslims every single day, and all you can do is gloat because as far as you are concerned, it will mean getting one over on the Christians.

    You truly disgust me.

    • And ofcourse no sympathy for the girls and wmen being killed every single day in the US because of Christianity or the Bible…You wanna go down that road, Im all game.

  7. But Zahra’s murder – in part because it happened in the capital and not a rural area – has compelled Syria’s grand mufti, cleric Ahmad Hassoun, to publicly condemn the crime, calling for the first time for the immediate protection of girls at risk and for legal reform on the basis that such crimes are un-Islamic. Ahamd Hassoun

    I see, so because the crime occured in an urban milieu and cannot, therefore, rermain hidden, the good Mufti has decided to speak up and condedmn it? So had this honour killing happened in a rural area (as most no doubt do) no one would have uttered a peep of protest? The cleric’s actions aren’t spurred on by a sense of outrage, rather they are merely the means to save face.

    What’s more, if this cleric wishes to reform the law on the basis that such killings are unislamic, then he’s going to have a very tough time doing so, seeings that such killings CAN, according to some entirely legitimate interpretations of Islam’s texts, be justified by scripture.

    The cleric’s statement says two things:

    This honour killing, because it’s been exposed, is an embarrassment to islam and Muslims.

    Islam is never to blame; it is only a faulty interpretation of the faith’s core texts by humans, and not the faith itself, that is at the root of the crime.

    Islam remains perfect, unblemished and entirely free of blame, playing absolutely no role whatsoever in any honour killings, anywhere at any time!

    A sincere attempt to end the practice?

    Or a shallow and superficial way of diverting attention from the real cause?

    And I see that someone, in a bold and brazen attempt at originality, has once again trotted out Leviticus!

    I’m just reeling from the novelty!

    • I see – if a Muslim condemns honour killing it doesn’t really count because he must be doing it for the wrong reason, based on what you somehow know is going on inside his head.

  8. “I see, so because the crime occured in an urban milieu and cannot, therefore, rermain hidden, the good Mufti has decided to speak up and condedmn it? So had this honour killing happened in a rural area (as most no doubt do) no one would have uttered a peep of protest? The cleric’s actions aren’t spurred on by a sense of outrage, rather they are merely the means to save face.”

    Just like its impossible to know and condemn every unreported crime against women in the West, so is it impossible to know about and condemn any crime in other parts of the world.

    “What’s more, if this cleric wishes to reform the law on the basis that such killings are unislamic, then he’s going to have a very tough time doing so, seeings that such killings CAN, according to some entirely legitimate interpretations of Islam’s texts, be justified by scripture.”

    Provide the verses then

    “Islam remains perfect, unblemished and entirely free of blame, playing absolutely no role whatsoever in any honour killings, anywhere at any time!”

    Honour killings take place in Hindu and Christian communities in India and the surrounding countries, to some part we have honour suicides where people are driven to kill themselves in China and the surrounding countries by pressure from their community. Ofcourse, we wont hear you say anything about that.

    “And I see that someone, in a bold and brazen attempt at originality, has once again trotted out Leviticus!

    I’m just reeling from the novelty!”

    Its just interesting to see that the one Scripture that actually commands honour killings and death for apostasy is not the Quran, as you would have us believe.

  9. if a Muslim condemns honour killing it doesn’t really count because he must be doing it for the wrong reason, based on what you somehow know is going on inside his head.

    I put question marks at the end of several of my ‘comments’ . I’m speculating about the cleric’s intentions, having read countless examples of similar ‘talk’ wherein such beguiling words turned out to be most insincere.

    Once again:

    But Zahra’s murder – in part because it happened in the capital and not a rural area – has compelled Syria’s grand mufti, cleric Ahmad Hassoun, to publicly condemn the crime,

    Now, how would you interpret that? The Mufti was “compelled”to denouce this killing because it took place in the capitol and had therefore recieved a lot of publicity. It would seem the good cleric’s condemnations of honour killings have strings attached, in that if they’re committed in remote rural areas where the news is unlikely to get out, no condemnation is necessary. However, this particular killing, because (at least in part) it took place in the Jordan’s capital and has therefore been publicised must be condemned.

    C’mon, the cleric’s condemnations are conditional, parochial,and not at all motivated by sincere and honest indignation. There are devoid of any ethical considerations or dimensions, and are merely utilitarian gestures designed to save face.

    By the way, in 2003 Jordan’s parliament attempted to pass amendments softening the laws on honor killings , but the reforms were blocked by clerics out of ‘islamic’ concerns. Who were the clerics who opposed these reforms? The Jordanian clerics enlisted the aid of Imams from neighbouring countries, including Syria.

    Were one, such as yourself Mr Bartholomew, to engage in a little jouranlistic rigeur ( I haven’t the time)in order to uncover the identity of those opposing clerics, and if Ahmad Hassoun’s name figures among them, then you’ll have some idea of just how ‘sincere’ his words are, won’t you!

    Provide the verses then

    Rifka Bary is an apostate.

    All four schools of Islamic jurisprudence call for the death penalty for apostasy.

    The Hadith provide clear examples of how apostates should be dealt with (it isn’t pretty), and The Hadith are an integral part of Islam’s core texts.

    Google them

    • “Goodgle them”
      No. You made the claim, you provide the evidence. preferably in the original Arabic, not somebody’s dodgy translation.

    • Provide them here. And surtely, Muslims give more preference tot he Quran than they do to the Hadith? Im just curous as to why you think she is safer with a man whose Holy Book tells him to kill her for apostasy and converting while denouncing the man whose Holy Book tells him not to kill her.

    • And once again, this is typical of the anti-Islamics around this case: No focus at all on the case at hand, but because some Jordanian said something or some traveller said something, this girl in the US will be killed by her mindless zombie robot parents.

  10. Hi,

    Here’s a case from the UK:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1210799/My-mother-hired-hitman-kill-The-shocking-story-Muslim-woman-parents-disapproved-Western-lifestyle.html

    Sofia Hayat’s story is very sad, but she managed to escape from her parents and get on with her life.

    It is possible, isn’t it, that Rifqa is experiencing a similar kind of upbringing?

    In which case, what she needs is safety, and, most of all, respect for her own wishes.

    I still think that a 17 year old should be able to lead their own life.

    Marcus

  11. Yes, I also think that a 17-year-old should be allowed to live as she wishes. But I very much doubt that her fundie “friends” will allow that.
    She’s got herself into a bind. A normal rebellious teenager wanting more freedom, she sought, and found sympathy online from the good Pastor. Encouraged to run away from home, she did so – then found that if she was to stay in her new home she had to agree to the pastor’s version of her life.
    A typical teenage runaway, she thought that her family would never have her back,so she went along with the deception; she knew of nowhere else she could go (the Pastor sure as hell wouldn’t have told her about Social Services or Womens’ Shelters). In any case, as she must have been told more than once,a good Christian (which she wanted to be) would submit to authority – i.e., the Pastor.
    So this way, she got drawn into the web of lies – first passively agreeing with the Pastor’s lurid claims about Islam and her family, then parroting his lies. And nowm she can’t see any way out of the web – she admits that she lied and went along with lies, she’s admitting that she’s a Bad Christian (Christians don’t lie!); she’s admitting that the Pastor is a Bad Christian – but how can he be, he’s a Pastor! Her new family and friends will all reject her, she’ll have nowhere to go – and she’s condemmed to to Hell.
    As I said, she’s in a bind.

  12. first passively agreeing with the Pastor’s lurid claims about Islam and her family, then parroting his lies. And nowm she can’t see any way out of the web – she admits that she lied and went along with lies, she’s admitting that she’s a Bad Christian (Christians don’t lie!); she’s admitting that the Pastor is a Bad Christian – but how can he be, he’s a Pastor! Her new family and friends will all reject her, she’ll have nowhere to go

    Rifka converted to Christianity long before she met the good pastor. She ran away from home, not as a typical teenager, but as an someone who knew the cultural cassette of her parents and who, thus, understood the potential danger her life was in. The attempts to portray her as brainwashed or as being manipulated by the Christians with whom she took shelter have no basis in fact.

    And as for the pasotr’s *lurid* claims about Islam…well there are growing numbers of ex-Muslims ( I’ve several in my church group) from a myraid of different cultures, all of which are dominated by Islam, who make the same *lurid* claims about the faith.

    One need only read the Koran, Sira and Hadith pour se rendre ‘a l’evidence!

    – and she’s condemmed to to Hell. Ah, so the *curse* of Allah is upon her, eh?

    Rifka has made a successful break for freedom, and so islamists have no other choice but to condemn her to hell…while knawing on the corners of their computer keyboards.

    Tough luck!

    • “Rifka converted to Christianity long before she met the good pastor”

      Thanks for admitting this. So she lived with her parents for ages while being a Christian and wasnt killed. Wow.

      “She ran away from home, not as a typical teenager, but as an someone who knew the cultural cassette of her parents and who, thus, understood the potential danger her life was in. The attempts to portray her as brainwashed or as being manipulated by the Christians with whom she took shelter have no basis in fact.”

      Would she have run away from home without the pastor grooming her over the internet? Old men grooming young girls over the internet to run away from home and come live with them… Stop protecting people like that.

      “And as for the pasotr’s *lurid* claims about Islam…well there are growing numbers of ex-Muslims ( I’ve several in my church group) from a myraid of different cultures, all of which are dominated by Islam, who make the same *lurid* claims about the faith.”

      Theres also people from a myriad of backgrounds who dislike Democracy, or votes, or female pastors, or gays…. They must be right and indiciative of everyone too…

    • June–don’t you find it interesting that Rifqa converted to Christianity four years ago, and yet there has been no uprising from Central Ohio Christians with whom she has worshipped and studied for these four years–no congregation has claimed her as theirs? No minister has spoken up of having heard her fears? Pam Gellar claims that “someone very close” to Rifqa claims that they went together multiple times to show evidence of physicial abuse to the middle school counselor (who ignored the evidence, as well as the legal obligation to make a report to either police or children’s services). Isn’t it odd that there was no Christian friend, no minister, no adult who baptised her to whom she could turn?

      According to Blake Lorenz’ sermon, Rifqa was baptised by a minister now serving in Kansas City Interntational House of Prayer. Perhaps they do online baptisms? Xenos, a local mega-church, with a history of drawing college students into the fold and away from family and friends, has declined that they were connected to Rifqa. Jamal Jivanjee claims that Rifqa heard one of his sermons online and contacted him–at some point following her conversion. How is it that no one stood witness to this conversion? Are they all afraid of a fatwah if the own up to having converted Rifqa?

      I just think that it is very interesting that all of the interest in protecting Rifqa is coming from Florida–and none from Ohio, where she is alleged to have worshipped for four years.

  13. June`s mask has just slipped. Its obvious you have no sincere interest in the welfare of this young girl . You are much more interested in getting one over against the hated muslims. If a 16 year old white girl from a christian background had run away and met up with a middle aged arab muslim man she had met on the internet the florida police would have come down on the arab like a ton of bricks and the reaction would have been hysterical.
    The story would have been presented as an example of debauched lecherous swarthy arab abducting and grooming white christian girls. The various various anti muslim bigots who are “supporting” Rifqa have no real interest in her welfare she is just a pawn a trophy in their crusade. The authorities should place her in a secular foster home till she is old enough decide what she wants to do with her life while possibly allowing controlled parental access and keep her away from these crazed christian extremists. The pastor who unlawfully kept her in his house for over two weeks without informing the authorities should be investigated. Incidentally there are plenty of honour killings in the west carried out by non muslims but they are typically called “crimes of passion” or domestic murders domestic violence etc instead.

    • We only have to look at the raction to Choudrys antics with that young boy to see how the non-Muslims would have reacted.

  14. […] as part of the Rifqa Bary saga. He was her pastor in Ohio, and claims that supernatural power manifests through her: Each time we met with her, I left a changed person. This young girl not only lived out the kingdom […]

  15. […] telling her that she has a special prophetic role to play in the world, and that God has given her supernatural powers of healing. According to Charisma: Jivanjee said Bary believes God has a plan for her and that she […]

  16. […] telling her that she has a special prophetic role to play in the world, and that God has given her supernatural powers of healing. According to Charisma: [Jamal] Jivanjee said Bary believes God has a plan for her and […]

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