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Trafalgar Square Packed for Conspiracy Rally Featuring David Icke and Katie Hopkins

From the Independent:

Thousands of anti-lockdown and anti-vaccine protesters gathered in central London for a “Worldwide rally for freedom” – five days after restrictions were lifted in England.

Conspiracy theorists David Icke, Gillian McKeith and Piers Corbyn, the brother of former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, were among the speakers at the demonstration in Trafalgar Square.

The event also attracted far-right commentator Katie Hopkins…

…Kate Shemirani, who was struck off by the Nursing and Midwifery Council last month for spreading Covid misinformation, said: “Get their names. Email them to me. With a group of lawyers, we are collecting all that. At the Nuremburg Trials the doctors and nurses stood trial and they hung. If you are a doctor or a nurse, now is the time to get off that bus… and stand with us the people.”

London major Sadiq Khan described her comments as “utterly appalling”. He tweeted: “I have raised it directly with the Met Police. Our NHS staff are the heroes of this pandemic and Londoners from across this city roundly reject this hate.”

Videos of the event were shared on Twitter; in particular, there was a useful thread by the BBC’s Shayan Sardarizadeh, who also noted the involvement of fringe political candidate David Kurten and the anti-5G campaigner Mark Steele. Steele also took part in last week’s protest, during which he chanted “paedo scum” at the Houses of Parliament in support of a contingent of Satanic Ritual Abuse protestors led by Jeanette Archer. Shemirani’s speech was captured by Marc Lister, and scenes of the crowd show that Trafalgar Square was packed to capacity.

The Independent article also refers to the event as being part of a “World Wide Rally for Freedom” taking place in several locations around the world; the fact-checking site Logically has delved into this here, reporting that the rallies “were entirely astroturfed and coordinated by a small group from Kassel in Germany” called Freie Bürger Kassel (Free Citizens of Kassel).

With these kind of events it is also worth noting who was not there. In particular, the vocal anti-lockdown activist Laurence Fox (who also scoffs at the vaccine, despite denying that he is anti-vax), who was present at last week’s protest, declined to be seen sharing a stage with the likes of David Icke and Katie Hopkins; perhaps it would have embarrassed his donor/patron Jeremy Hosking or undermined the continuing free publicity he gets from sympathetic media.

However, Fox took to Twitter to convey a general impression of support without committing himself to specific claims: he RTed a Tweet from a third party expressing “solidarity” with the protestors, and then shared a video via Paul Joseph Watson of a protestor being arrested, which he described as “tyranny” despite the lack of any context, and the man’s ludicrous theatrics of shouting “I’m going to die” as he was pinned to the ground and then screaming as he was handcuffed. He also denounced Dan Hodges for referring to “incitement to murder” – this was an obvious reference to Shemirani’s “Nuremburg Trials” comment, but Fox claimed that it was an unfair mischaracterisation of lockdown sceptics and opponents of “medical apartheid”.

16 Responses

  1. When the “Independent” and it’s followers say:

    “Attractive far-right commentator Katie Hopkins”

    Do they really mean she’s to the right of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Salazar…..

    If not what is the Left’s latest neologism for them?!

    Deplorables? LITERALLY Trumps?!

    Or is it just a Freudian Slip revealing their fantasies about a jack-booted Hopkins whipping them!!!

    Also isn’t Kate Shemirani entirely correct when she says:

    “At the Nuremburg Trials the doctors and nurses stood trial and they hung.”

    But how is saying:

    “If you are a doctor or a nurse, now is the time to get off that bus… and stand with us the people.”

    “incitement to murder”?!

    Are people claiming that when she’s saying:

    “Get their names. Email them to me. With a group of lawyers, we are collecting all that. At the Nuremburg Trials the doctors and nurses stood trial and they hung.”

    She’s inciting lawyers to murder doctors?

    Or is shesaying that the Nuremberg hangings were murder but she wants the (a?) government to reinstate them?!

    By the way has the Nuremberg Protocol gone the way of the Hypocritical Oaf!!!

    And Logically will we see delving and “fact-checking” into every world-wide (China?North Korea? Vietnam? Russia? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Qatar….?!) environMentalist, feminist, BLM, or TransActivist protest, and reporting that the rallies “were entirely astroturfed and coordinated by a small group”!!!

    Oh and who started the trend for “ludicrous theatrics of shouting ‘I’m going to die’ as he was pinned to the ground and then screaming as he was handcuffed”?!

    Are people claiming George Floyd was play-acting with his theatrics before during and after several cops tried and failed to get him into a police vehicle?

    And what about Tony Timpa (look him up if anyone hasn’t heard the name – that fact alone will tell you more than any internet search).

    (By the way is Shemirani an Englishwoman chosen to be his bride by an immigrant-rocket scientist?

    Or is she herself one of the ethnic saviours of the NHS?!

    Either way isn’t this witch-hunt against her unWoke, or does that only work one-way!!!)

    • Attractive? Is this a Freudian slip?

      • @Tom July 27, 2021
        Attractive? Is this a Freudian slip?

        —–

        Oh FFS!

        Did you not bother reading beyond that before rushing to display your level of intellect.

        Let me help you raise it even further.

        The cut and pasted quote was:

        “…attractED far-right commentator Katie Hopkins…”

        Which I deliberately adapted to:

        When the “Independent” and it’s followers say:

        “AttractIVE far-right commentator Katie Hopkins”

        Do they really mean she’s to the right of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Salazar…..

        If not what is the Left’s latest neologism for them?!

        Deplorables? LITERALLY Trumps?!

        Or IS it just A FREUDIAN SLIP revealing THEIR fantasies about a jack-booted Hopkins whipping THEM!!!

        Now go wipe down your keyboard before you mum sees how excited you got over your clever comment.

      • You right-leaning cockwomble. Who do you think reads your stuff?

      • Well, clearly fellow cockwombles like you!

    • Far right? ie a Fascist who thinks fleeing refugees are “cockroaches” who should be left to drown. Far right enough for you?

  2. I find these “Nazi” and Satanic Ritual claims at this protest, disturbing, because these not evidenced (?) claims are clouding and alienating real evidence. 1) The Lorraine Radford Report (NSPCC) identified a minimum of 11 million abused children in the U.K., but not, I understand, related specifically to any “Satanic Ritual” abuse. 2) The U.K. DID carry out Nazi surgeons and scientists rescued from the Nuremberg Trials sterilisation experiments on mental patients in the 1950’s as post WW2 War Crimes . I was a stolen baby in Nottingham given at ten days of age, 19/8/53, to a dangerous psychotic “submitting to” sterilisation to see if these quoting the documents “balanced” serious mental illness, and there are some 7,000 university studies on these U.K. Nazi crimes, one in particular helpful the Open University study “The Silence is Roaring” extracts from which I have used as corroborating evidence in my own cases. Nottingham Social Workers have told me there were a number of cases like mine, they refer to as “The Army Jobs”. Sterilisation experiments in the 1950’s were criminal in English Law, so committed in secret by Nazi surgeons. My original birth documents were falsified with TWO false birth names, but over the whole of 2020, a specialist researcher got my real birth details, from the National Archives, where I was born to a Joan Edmiston, which correlates with the evidence of the experiments involving me, ordered released by a Nottingham Judge, in 2016. And the documents are crystal clear, I was stolen to be used in these atrocity experiments to see if I would be tortured after the psychotic was sterilised. They state “possible pregnancy could cause disturbance that would be dangerous to the infant” (me) and they wanted to discover if I could avoid being tortured after she was sterilised. No English doctor would have committed criminal sterilisations, so Nazis following the experiments of Josef Mengele did them for the British Army instead. As I have mentioned before, the psychotic tried to kill me for HER Satanic motivations, because the psychotic believed I was “Satan who deserved to die” but this problem of psychosis is a far cry from what these protesters are claiming. Any “Nazi” claims need to be specific, and logically evidenced. There has to be a defined connection by documentary evidence. The Guardian a couple of years ago reported there were still around 200 Nazis hiding in the U.K., but these people are in hiding, so unlikely to be involved in such brash “Satanic Rituals”, and anyway, real Nazi surgeons were experimenting on genetics, and / or sterilisations to “balance” psychosis.
    My fear is these protests, somewhat theatrical, will damage the reputations of those like myself, who can prove these events , but happened at a different and definable organisational way. Far more subtle than what these protesters are claiming. In due course, when the evidence is no longer sub-judicial at the U.N. Court, I will be publishing all the documents in a Trilogy, which also explores the psychological impact of U.K. police and authority evidential corruption, with “blame the victim for our corruption” strategies and police harassment and threats against my “health” and “prosecution” for submitting evidence against them to the U.N. and I.C.C. but what I can reveal is this. Surrey Police thought they were calling me on a private telephone number, but they were not, they were calling the Spanish Ministry of Inspection, in the presence of five English-speaking Ministry Inspectors, recording the calls. In 2002 a D,C, Russel Cannon, stated “No problem proving your symptoms were the result of assault”. A year later he claimed that “Unfortunately child torture is not a crime in this country” Then 14/4/04, a D.C.I. John Boshier, stated it was “not in the national interest to prosecute” my torturers. That was absurd, because University studies had already shown these crimes against humanity and baby thefts had been quite common. The 20 year international criminal investigation continued and fortified in 2016, when the Nottingham Judge ordered release of most of the evidence of the Nazi sterilisation experiments using me, and a Nottingham Police officer, a sergeant Thornhill wrote that sterilisation was legal treatment for psychosis, so “no crime in Nottingham”. I asked him if he thought the gassing of the Jews was legal treatment for insomnia. He never replied. And he never gave me any medical qualifications for stating that sterilisation was legal recognised treatment for psychosis, and that baby theft was legal. All this I am saying is in writing, and I will be publishing when I am permitted to do by the court. There are no juries, only Panels of three Judges working on the documents alone, so I am considering publishing the documents in advance. A contributor here said I should publish, and I am beginning to lose my fear of damaging the cases, because there are no juries to influence. If I get the legal go-ahead, be sure I will publish , I’m itching to do it. Another contributor said “Keep toppling” which needs doing. Not only for me, but for all victims of child abuse cover ups, of any type.

    If any of those protesters see this, my question to them is DO YOU HAVE DOCUMENTS OF EVIDENCE PLEASE. Because otherwise, do not cloud real evidenced cases, with spurious claims that cannot be substantiated.

    Regards, Lindsay Fraser

  3. Ah, this protest was more about Covid, (I do not live in the U.K., but read quality newspapers from time to time) but as the Independent’s piece has said today, conspiracy theories all over the place are damaging the veracity of historical records, including recent history. Given the dreadful death toll from Covid, how anyone dare deny it exists, beats me. Vaccines generally save lives, in any disease, so if you are saying the same people, or some of them, are banging the drum on Satanic Ritual abuse, are also claiming Covid is not what it is, making public fools of themselves, how can anyone take them seriously on any of their claims ? They are clouding and distorting reality, and that is dangerous.

    • “Given the dreadful death toll from” NHS hospitals, “how anyone dare deny it exists, beats me”!

      Over the past year and a half a mere 130,000 are claimed to have died in the UK within 28 days of a virus manufacturing procedure being applied to a swab that has been in contact with their nasal passage or throat along with who only knows what else and generating enough copies of a scrap of dead virus to give a positive reading.

      Meanwhile the total number of deaths in the UK is well over 600,000 pa.

      And we’ll over half of those are in hospital or within 28 days of discharge.

      To put that and Covid19 into perspective the NHS admits 5,000 accidental deaths pa.

      But epidemiologists estimate the true figure is more like 100,000 accidental hospital deaths pa in the UK (and half a million in the US)!

      Surely it’s time we shut down this deadly disaster of a government department!!!

      Of course neither the government nor the NHS will broadcast those facts.

      I find these “Nazi” politicians and Neo-Stasi NHS staff COVID claims disturbing because they are not evidenced and are clouding and alienating real evidence where it’s not actually censored and whistleblowers cancelled.

      If the virus was as bad as they claim they would be trying to get and publish all the facts. But how many autopsy and viral culture confirmed COVID deaths have there been?

      We, and more importantly they, haven’t even got a clue how many actual doctor diagnosed and virus culture confirmed “cases” of people ill from COVID there have been.

      To understand the significance of that look up a New York Times no less article from seven years ago about a Whooping-Cough outbreak that wasn’t anything of the kind.

      Specialist researchers got the real details from the National Archives and they’ve even been written up in a related New York Times article but no one will listen despite the fact that judges in eg Portugal have released similar information.

      And don’t start me on the government trying to do experiments on children who are highly unlikely to be ill from COVID never mind die with experimental torture, sorry, treatments that not only haven’t been fully tested and approved for adults, but haven’t been tested at all on children!

      Someone needs to write a Trilogy which explores the psychological aswell as physical health impact of U.K. Government, police and authority evidential corruption, with “blame the victim for our corruption” strategies and police harassment and threats against any “health” evidence submitted and “prosecution” for protesting.

      People who dispute any of the above facts are making public fools of themselves, how can anyone take them seriously on any of their claims?

      They are clouding and distorting reality, and that is dangerous!

      • PS If any of those protesting those facts see this, my question to them is DO YOU HAVE DOCUMENTS OF EVIDENCE PLEASE.

        Because otherwise, do not cloud real evidenced cases, with spurious claims that cannot be substantiated!

      • Dear Mr. Man, the coronavirus family contain around 400 classes of separate types, which include the common cold and seasonal ‘flu, all of which have normal mutations. WHO have considered globally there have been 2 million deaths from the Covid 19 variant, which has the capacity to cause serious illness and death. The idea is vaccines and masks, and lockdowns, cut down the potential death rate, by cutting down infection rates. If there had been no precautions taken the death rates would have been significantly much higher than 130,000. Any tested prescription medicine is an “experiment” on the individual, but an “experiment” with “cure” or reduction of disease impact intention. You refer to “bad” experimentation, so do you remember Andrew Sabisky, advisor to No. 10, who is reported to have told Johnson “Worth losing a kid a year to do (dangerous) experiments on children ? ” I think you have to define the intentions of general medicine. If you look at countries like Brazil, where the death toll is noticeable, for comparison, or India, you can see what happens when precautions are not taken. You mention the “mere” 130,000 deaths in the U.K., but the families of the lost lives, may not agree with you . When you see micrographs and scans of lungs destroyed by the virus, and transition to brain, heart and other organs, causing the “long” version of the disease, you can form a certain perception. Sure, there are politics in mass vaccinations, with some people having very rare side effects, when they have natural reduced platelet levels, or immunological problems, but the majority have no side effects at all. Personally I have had both Pfizer jabs, and all I noticed after the first one was feeling a bit tired on the day after the first one, but after the second, two weeks later, I felt nothing at all. Neither did my wife. In my area, only one person we know of, had to stay in bed a short time with a temperature. But indeed, was that due to the vaccine ?? What I do think, to avoid risks of side effects, is to offer a blood test before vaccination, to see platelet levels as a guide. But anyone who has no problems with annual ‘flu jabs, is less likely to suffer consequences of the Covid vaccine, because these viruses all belong to the same family.

        I do though agree on your other comment about government experimentation on children. Look at social protection from abuse policies, that have completely failed. 41 out of 43 regional police forces found with child abuse corrupted cases (HMIC 2017). The cause of this is no working criminal accountability. This is what I have been fighting evidentially over the last 20 years, amassing evidence, not only in my cases, but collective cases sent to us, for the U.N. “The United Kingdom is the worst of industrialised nations for child abuse” and what we are doing is proving the mechanisms of police and authority evidential corruption multi-cases. I can tell you the Spanish Judicial Police have expressed absolute “shock” at the U.K. evidence, spending time with the Spanish Prosecutor, going through some of it. U.K. refusals and failures and corruption and perjury to fail to protect and rescue children being abused across the board, is an international concern. Children are the future generation, not government(s) toys to be tortured and sex abused and abandoned.

      • Wow!

        Clearly you chose to put your fingers in your ears and sing la La LA I’m not listening instead of taking my advice.

        Or you didn’t get that far because my parody was as long as the original.

        Which should have taught you something.

        But obviously didn’t.

        “Dear Mr. Man, the coronavirus family contain around 400 classes of separate types,”

        The word “around” tells us we don’t actually know how many there are.

        So we can’t actually know if we’re priming the PCR D/RNA manufacturing process with a genetic sequence common to one or more other Coronaviruses.

        Actually as we probably haven’t genetically sequenced all of every Coronavirus we do know of we can’t even know if the manufacturing process is replicating a scrap of dead virus we know is perfectly safe rather than as “deadly” as COVID1984!

        “which include the common cold and seasonal ‘flu, all of which have normal mutations.”

        The words “Include THE common cold” and “seasonal ‘flu” warn us you don’t even have a basic general knowledge of the subject.

        Only some common colds are caused by coronaviruses.

        And you haven’t even absorbed your indoctrination properly!

        As we’re constantly being brainwashed the ‘flu isn’t any thing like a coronavirus.

        The ‘flu is very unstable and mutates often, hence the constan( need to modify vaccines.

        But not only do coronaviruses not mutate as often:

        They actually have the ability to repair genetic charges!

        Oh and just in case you were thinking it, the reason we don’t have a vaccine (or herd immunity) against “the Common Cold” is because “it” is caused by hundreds of different viruses or bacteria!!!

        “WHO have considered globally there have been 2 million deaths from the Covid 19 variant, which has the capacity to cause serious illness and death.”

        This would be the WHO that constantly changes its advice under political pressure and that even the BBC have reported they do so!

        “The idea is vaccines and masks, and lockdowns, cut down the potential death rate, by cutting down infection rates.”

        Yes, they’re “ideas”!

        But no one has a clue.

        As I’ve pointed out repeatedly we have no idea what the infection rates are, or even the death rates.

        And if anyone does they can only be keeping them from us because it would reveal a truth they don’t want you to know.

        “If there had been no precautions taken the death rates would have been significantly much higher than 130,000.”

        How do you or they know?

        Where are the proper scientific studies or even anecdotal commentaries?

        They tell us non-lockdown Sweden had much worse outcomes than much more rural and less densely populated lockdown neighbour Norway.

        Based on the previous years’ exceptional rates!

        They don’t tell you about the highly comparable neighbours Belgium and The Netherlands.

        Because tight lockdown Belgium did far worse than laissez-faire neighbour Netherlands!

        They also don’t tell you non-lockdown Japan had a very low death rate.

        And if you bring it up they’ll tell you it’s because they wear masks.

        But the masks they wear are to stop relatively massive carbon particulates, not miniscule virus bearing aerosol droplets!

        And are vented to enable unrestricted exhalation!!!

        Tell them that and they’ll fall back on the Japanese don’t shake hands never mind kiss and hug: they bow from six feet apart.

        All true apart from the fact serology testing shows most Japanese have COVID antibodies!

        They have a low death rate because they have Community (aka Herd) Immunity!!!

        And no, you can’t compare deaths “with” COVID (false) positives to Prof Ferguson’s model predictions.

        Apart from the fact he’s been wildly wrong in every pandemic, it’s not even comparing apples and oranges:

        It’s comparing leprechauns to unicorns!

        But we do know from hard historical data that Lockdown will KILL SEVERAL TIMES AS MANY not just as the CLAIMED deaths WITH covid:

        But that Lockdown will KILL SEVERAL TIMES AS MANY as Ferguson’s wildest CLAIMED every worst possible guesstimated parameter combined model projected deaths!

        But those deaths won’t be of the old and vulnerable grandparents who somehow managed to survive the last mild flu season and wouldn’t have survived the next if nothing else finished them off first.

        The Lockdown deaths will be the young parents killed by what are known as the “Diseases of Despair”!

        Did I miss anything?!

      • To recap:

        We do know from hard historical data that Lockdown will KILL SEVERAL TIMES AS MANY not just as the CLAIMED deaths WITH covid:

        But that Lockdown will KILL SEVERAL TIMES AS MANY as Ferguson’s wildest CLAIMED every worst possible guesstimated parameter combined model projected deaths!

        But those deaths won’t be of the old and vulnerable grandparents who somehow managed to survive the last mild flu season and wouldn’t have survived the next if nothing else finished them off first.

        The Lockdown deaths will be the young parents killed by what are known as the “Diseases of Despair”!

        Did I miss anything?!

        Oh, yes:

        “Any tested prescription medicine is an “experiment” on the individual, but an “experiment” with “cure” or reduction of disease impact intention.”

        Yes but it’s an “experiment on the individual” with a fully authorised because fully tested product.

        Not an emergency temporary authorisation of an only partly tested prototype that won’t have even completed testing for another two years.

        And is being pushed on the young who don’t need it and children it’s never even been tested on!

        “You refer to “bad” experimentation, so do you remember Andrew Sabisky, advisor to No. 10, who is reported to have told Johnson “Worth losing a kid a year to do (dangerous) experiments on children ? ”

        What is the point you are trying to make?

        “I think you have to define the intentions of general medicine.”

        That it’s OK to experiment on, torture, even kill, one kid who won’t benefit, if the intention is to save two who might?!

        Just listen to yourself!!!

        “If you look at countries like Brazil, where the death toll is noticeable, for comparison,”

        Exactly:

        They have to scout the world for poor countries with large populations and appaling healthcare to get a “noticeable” death toll “for comparison”!

        “or India, you can see what happens when precautions are not taken.”

        Yes, nothing!

        They have to focus on a country with a population soaring towards one and a half BILLION to get a “noticeable death TOLL”!

        But they don’t give you the death RATES for a true comparison!!

        They are TINY!!!

        Oh and those “reports” on the “news” you might find upsetting are highly localised in a poor country with inadequate healthcare!!!!

        “You mention the “mere” 130,000 deaths in the U.K.,”

        Yes

        Within 28 days of a (false) positive COVID manufacturing process result.

        In comparison to:

        “Meanwhile the total number of deaths in the UK is well over 600,000 pa.

        “And we’ll over half of those are in hospital or within 28 days of discharge.”

        “To put that and Covid19 into perspective the NHS admits 5,000 accidental deaths pa.”

        “But epidemiologists estimate the true figure is more like 100,000 accidental hospital deaths pa in the UK (and half a million in the US)!”

        Please don’t misqote me completely out of context!

        “but the families of the lost lives, may not agree with you.”

        And please don’t fall back on immature, juvenile, emotionally incontinent, tear-jerking, shroud-waving, guilt-tripping, emotional-blackmail Feeeelze if you can’t produce a reasoned evidence-based argument!

        “When you see micrographs and scans of lungs destroyed by the virus, and transition to brain, heart and other organs, causing the “long” version of the disease, you can form a certain perception.”

        And when you see micrographs and scans of lungs destroyed by the vaccines and transition of blood clots to brain, heart and other organs, causing the vasculitis of the toxic “wrong” version of the disease “treatment”, you can form another more certain perception!

        Oh and there are studies that show there is no “long covid”/ it’s coincidental other illnesses/ people are self-reporting mis-remembered possible symptoms prompted by surveys/ it’s hypochondria/ fully funded malingering/ hysterical ovaryaction….!!!

        “Sure, there are politics in mass vaccinations, with some people having very rare side effects, when they have natural reduced platelet levels, or immunological problems, but the majority have no side effects at all.”

        Sure, there are politics in mass hysterical COVID1984 Scamdemics, with some people having very rare effects, when they have natural reduced health levels, or immunological problems, but the majority have no effects at all!

        “Personally I have had both Pfizer jabs, and all I noticed after the first one was feeling a bit tired on the day after the first one, but after the second, two weeks later, I felt nothing at all. Neither did my wife. In my area, only one person we know of, had to stay in bed a short time with a temperature. But indeed, was that due to the vaccine ?? What I do think, to avoid risks of side effects, is to offer a blood test before vaccination, to see platelet levels as a guide.”

        Personally I have had both Pfizer jabs early despite having what was almost certainly a very bad dose of Covid19 in January 2020 as I’m in my 60s, “obese” with co-morbidities, and immunosuppressed.

        If i’d gone to the doctor’s (remember that?) I’d have been told to go home and take some paracetamol and plenty of water.

        Now you’re not even supposed to ring

        Just stay at home with no treatment unless you need a ventilator and wait for a vaccine!

        But anyone who has no problems with annual ‘flu, is less likely to suffer consequences of the Covid

        Again:

        Despite these viruses not belonging to the same family.

  4. You did miss something, study medicine and immunology. You have made a number of mistakes, like “common colds” can be caused by bacteria. Bacterial infections are the subsequent effects of cell necrosis caused by viral damage. You refer to the royal “we” don’t know, without defining whom you mean. leave it, because I don’t have time to argue medicine. I am too busy with cases.

    • Did somebody mention “conspiracy theories all over the place are damaging the veracity”?!

  5. Mr. Man, medically speaking you are well off track, but of course, lockdown sufferers should have support they are not getting. There is a rise in domestic violence too. The current government is a failure in many regards. You have misinterpreted my comment on Sabisky. Of course that was an outrage, that was the point I made.

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