Christian Right Books Tout Claim David Wilkerson Prophesied Covid-19 Pandemic in 1986

A book blurb:

God, Trump, and COVID-19

This book is a timely follow up to God, Trump and the 2020 Election that reveals insider information about China, the virus, and the ever-increasing stakes of the upcoming election. It will answer the question for the Christian believers (and seekers) of where God is in all this? It provides an unreported 1986 prophecy by the late David Wilkerson about a plague coming that would shut down the government as well as churches and bars, including shaking New York City as it’s never been shaken. Wilkerson said this plague would force believers into radical prayer that will spark an awakening–something echoed by Christian leaders and prophets.

Just as the economy was booming and Donald Trump was fixing long-term problems and beating back attacks from his opponents, a brand-new virus shakes up everything including the outcome of this election. The author has inside information about what happened in China early in the pandemic and what went wrong. He even documents (day by day in the appendix) what happened and how Donald Trump has led the nation in this time of crisis.

The author is Christian media mogul Stephen Strang, and a copy of his God, Trump and the 2020 Election was waved around by Trump at Davos, as I noted here.

Strang has already published some supposed “insider information about China” in columns for Charisma News – he is particularly reliant on the Christian Right activist Frank Amedia (blogged here), who claims to be in contact with Christians in China. Amedia says that Chinese Christians are experiencing miraculous healings, and he promotes as fact the theory that the virus emerged from the Wuhan lab. He has also provided Strang with the false information that Li Wenliang, the Chinese doctor who first identified the new illness, was a Christian (unsourced, but probably based on a fake deathbed testimony that was doing the rounds a few weeks ago).

The supposed prophecy attributed to David Wilkerson, meanwhile, has only recently come to light via the “End Times” Christian Zionist evangelist Mike Evans. Assuming it is genuinely based on something that Wilkerson actually said, the context is obviously AIDS, which was hitting New York badly in the mid-1980s. As I noted previously, Wilkerson was always predicting calamities, and he would certainly have imagined a downward spiral rather than the development of effective treatments. Supposed prophecies, whether from the Bible or elsewhere, should always be understood in relation to the times in which they appear.

In 1973, Wilkerson published The Vision, straplined as “A terrifying prophecy of Doomsday that is starting to happen now!” He died in an unprophesied car crash 38 years later, and his New York Times obit noted that just a month before his death he was promising that “an earth-shattering calamity is about to happen”, with “riots and fires in cities worldwide”.

However, Strang has competition – Evans (who in 2017 presented an award to Trump) has a book of his own covering the same ground, titled A Great Awakening is Coming. According to the blurb:

In 1986 David Wilkerson gave Mike Evans an incredible prophecy: “I see a plague coming on the world, and the bars and churches and government will shut down. The plague will hit New York City and shake it like it has never been shaken. The plague is going to force prayerless Believers into radical prayer and into their Bibles, and repentance will be the cry from the man of God in the pulpit. And out of it will come a third Great Awakening that will sweep America and the world.” In A Great Awakening Is Coming, Dr. Evans shares how God is working to stir revival in the hearts of people during a time of struggle. Sharing Scripture, inspirational stories, and accounts of awakening throughout history, he offers hope that the Lord has not left us, but is preparing us for a coming Great Awakening.

Apparently an advert for the book has appeared on Fox News.

The phrase “Great Awakening” here is most likely a reference to a new period of Christian revivalism, akin to the “Great Awakenings” of the past, although I wouldn’t discount the possibility that there is also subtle pitch towards enthusiasts of the millennial “QAnon” or “Q” conspiracy theory, who look forward to a “Great Awakening” in which elites and opponents of Trump will be exposed as child-killing Satanist paedophiles and put to death.

For some reason, works of popular prophecy that relate to some current crisis tend to appear behind the curve rather than ahead of it; from 2016 I recall a book entitled Ebola and the Fourth Horseman of the Apocalypse.

50 Responses

  1. We have in God’s Word, the Holy Bible, everything that we need to know about the last generation: things like the cashless society and the mark of the Beast, the return of Israel to their land, the preaching of the gospel to all nations, distress of nations with perplexity, weapons of mass destruction that can wipe-out all of life. All these have come about fairly recently, within the last 75 or one hundred years. Whilst we respect the Rev David Wilkerson for all of his work, we have to go by the Final Authority in all matters of belief and behaviour: and that is the Holy Bible alone.

  2. Dr. Evans was a Doctor of….Who? Everything parasites off something, plants and lichen off the soil, viruses off plants and mammals, politicians uhm the people, diseases are part of the cyclic eco-system, sometimes with the help of Man. But Covid is no “message” or “punishment” from uphigh, and from which ‘god’ ? There are hundreds of them, at least 200 from Roman and Greek times, and plenty more since . ‘Man’ always needs a ‘leader’ .

    • ‘O ALMIGHTY GOD, who in thy wrath didst send a plague upon thine own people in the wildlerness, for their obstinate rebellion against Moses and Aaron; and also, in the time of king David, dist slay with the plague of pesitlence threescore and ten thousand, and yet remembering thy mercy didst save the rest: have pity upon us miserable sinners, who now are visited with great sickness and mortality; that like as thou didst then accept of an atonement, and didst command the destroying Angel to cease from punishing, so it may now please thee to withdraw form us this plague and grievous sickness; through Jesu Christ oor Lord. Amen.” Book of Common Prayer: Church of England: Prayers.

  3. I notice the American intelligence services have not discarded the possibility of an accidental virus escape. I understand they are taking the Spanish December Report seriously. As I have previously mentioned in an associated post, one of our agents (Operatives) returned from Wuhan in December, who had been observing the laboratory and reported his findings which were not taken notice of at the time, as seen as a local problem. The female laboratory assistant did not know she was infected, when she went 200 meters away to the Wuhan market to buy food. It is not unnatural to want to eat something !! She accidentally infected market sellers, thence the locals, thence international transport spread it round the world, being easily transmittable. Accidents happen, and she did not know she had caught the disease in the lab, when she went to the market. To me it is patently absurd for theories the release was intentional. It was an accident, and nothing more, but the lesson to be learned, is there needs to be a global agreement, that as soon as there is a local event identified, travel bans immediately kick in. And lockdown in the locality. Otherwise it will happen again. I have been told there is a new variant that may circulate in September, but the world should now be ready to act quickly if it does circulate. The real defence is proper lockdown fast, and the Tories need to learn this lesson from now on. After Cummings and Johnson got it, I assume they have learnt something, and will properly provide protection from the beginning in the future, instead of allowing care workers etc. to die with inadequate protection, needlessly.

  4. Rev. West, oh dear, do you have any documentary evidence, a letter perhaps ? from your god specifically ordering genocide, including babies, children, doctors and pious people too ? If you have such a document, our intelligence officers would like to examine it. If your god has left his fingerprints on the papyrus, we’ll track him down and lock him up, Easy !! To catch him if he’s omnipresent as you evidently believe. I mean he’s not a very nice god is he, inflicting genocide for his own narcissistic reasons, is he ? You say he’s inflicted plague, well that’s a crime. Are you sure you are not making false allegations against this ‘loving’ god ? Or falsely misrepresenting him ? Your god might sue you in the High Court for doing that – hehhe!!

    • Your quarrel is with the Church of England’s ‘Book of Common Prayer’ (1662) and the Holy Bible. We must remember that death is universal and that it is a punishment for sin – Adam’s first sin and our own (Romans 5: 12); but after that comes the judgement of all of us (Hebrews 9: 27). I agree that the thought of this is not very pleasant, but that does not mean that God is not good – shall not the Judge of all the Earth do right? (Genesis 18: 25)

  5. Before the days of established explanatory science, religion was, and still is in some quarters, big business . Note the actual gods never appear in person, just a string of representatives, and profits. – Prophets make profit out of spreading fear. The ‘herd’ strategy works fine, by saying the god is ‘loving’, but will spread ‘plague’, collective punishment, if believers do not fall into line. What a matrix !! self-fulfilling prophesy ? In psychology, people sometimes punish themselves. What a waste. Better to find an intelligent solution, to a natural disaster, that occurs cyclically, in the normal competition of nature, which includes the folly of mankind…..History repeats itself, but new generations can forget, and repeat the errors of the past

    • As I say your quarrel is with the Church of England’s formularies and with the Holy Bible upon which they are grounded. Many have tried to explain away the Bible and the bodily resurrection of Jesus from the dead; all have failed.

  6. Revd. West, you see your frame of reference is opposite to mine. I retired a couple of years ago, but I have done my time penetrating very dangerous groups, getting their confidence like an actor, working out the command chain, who is responsible for what, their admissions, and plans, recording everything, and extracting shipping documents of arms and drugs etc., and feeding the evidence back centrally. I still do certain international Rome Treaty work, which I won’t define here, but you do not infiltrate dangerous groups with the idea of “punishment”. You work with the idea to stop horrendous crimes from happening, before the happen. My evidence procurement has put a lot of nasties in prison for lengthy sentences, but to me this is not your definition of “punishment”. It is rather a “stopper” of serious crimes, that would otherwise have happened. When such groups and their external connections are broken up, the potential damage is contained. Do you see what I am saying to you. Collective punishment you are advancing, in the religious context, are human rights crimes, in fact. You don’t “punish” Bob for Peter’s crimes !! That’s quite absurd to do that. And on your comment on death, if this did not exist, there would be no biological evolution. So even this is not “punishment” it is the laws of the universe, black holes, galaxies, stars coming and going, reflected in biological laws as well. You and I are part of a much bigger system of gravitational natural forces, than your narrow focus.

  7. There is no scientific or empirical evidence for your theory of Evolution.

  8. And to drive home the point, the concept of “punishment”, Biblical or prison, for the sake of “punishment” alone, does not work in the long-term; It does not stop reoccurrence. What that does is build resentment, anger, and revenge, where the prisoner goes out and again commits revenge crimes. A good prison is there to 1) stop reoccurrence immediately, 2) provide an opportunity for assessment 3) provide re-education so when the person leaves, they don’t do it again. A person who gets involved in dangerous drugs, arms, murder, is a person super screwed up. Easily led following sub-cultural rules, psychotic, or angry. Sometimes obsessed with money, or addictions, etc. A balanced person does not go out of their way to destroy another. Random shootings, for example, “punishment” doesn’t work. They need psychiatric assistance in a place of enclosure, and constant reassessment before they have the opportunity to return.

    You see Revd. West, you see Covid and indeed “death” as some kind of divine punishment, but it is people who allow (spread of virus) and other people who stop that spread, or search for antidotes. I worked on a joint intel and police case, with an Inspector, where 3 doctors, in a hospital, following their own sub-cultural rules, were assassinating patients. I occultly filmed them removing medications after two days, and introducing a coma-inducing drug to knock them out for 36 hours. The relatives were being told not to go to visit, as the patients were dying and they would be informed when they were dead. I intervened immediately, and challenged them after getting the evidence, and those patients recovered. The criminal court then ordered an in-depth investigation. The doctors then confessed they had killed 50% of patients, where relatives had not complained on being told not to go to the hospital, because these doctors simply saw no value in continuing the patients’ lives.That was their motive, based on nothing legal. Prison may have seemed “punishment” to some, but this was about stopping re-occurrence, and applying re-education on the Right to Life, obviously never again as doctors. Biblical “punishment” had nothing to do with anything. This was about saving lives. So a mix of police and intelligence skills (my part) stopped it. Do you see the point I am making ? Your need to see things in a more earthly way, cause and effect, and people intervention, not any god, has a lot to do with this.

    • You are entitled to your views but the Bible does not agree with you: it says that we have all sinned; we are all, therefore, subject to the penalty of sin, which is physical and everlasting death, a divine punishment; and death is universal – no one will excape it. It is not remediary but punitive and its purpose is the showing forth of retributive justice. What are you going to do about that?

      • What do you mean “What are you going to do about that ?” The Bible is 70% historical politics, and 30% pure fantasy. And talking of fantasy, you suggested you knew my ” quarrel” when you do not even know me. From the age of seven, I was being sexually abused, tortured with knives, and being beaten into silence, and your church said “Best forgotten”. I broke free of the shackles of religious fantasy, learnt to see life in a real way, qualified as an HR Lawyer, and separately as a professional psychologist, and spent decades in Intelligence to smash up bad things, which I was successful at doing. All this rubbish about death is divine punishment, completely ignores natural forces, cycles and natural evolution.

        What I am debunking is the / your idea that there is this thing roaming around meting out death and destruction (and Covid) as some eternal damnation execution. It’s rubbish, top to bottom. In all my years of stopping violent groups, I have never killed anyone, and I am happy with that, as I am a pacifist. If your god is going around murdering people, I’m not interested.

      • Donald Trump has recognised Jerusalem as the Israeli capital: you will have to admit that that is a good thing. Maybe God has raised him up for such a time as this.

  9. Well, Revd, West, where is your evidence that your god does anything ??? I invited you to provide a papyrus signed letter from your god instructing Covid punishment of all asunder, and I’m waiting….. !!! There is more evidence of evolution, than your static prayer book, written a hundred years plus after the Jesus Christ events !!!

    • Bishop Robinson (one of these radicals who was very heterodox) wrote in his scholarly book, ‘Redating the New Testament” (1976) that most of the New Testament was written before 70AD, when the Jewish Temple was destroyed: the main piece of evidence for this, being, that it does not mention it: and the reason why this is significant is that it would have been such a propaganda coup against the Jews to have mentioned it if it had, by then, happened. The reason why they did not mention it was because, when the NT was written, the destruction of the Jewish Temple had not happened. That dates the NT as being written, and accepted as Scripture, between about 46 and 66 AD. Christ was crucified and raised from the dead around 33AD and so, as the NT records, itself, it was written by the first generation of His chosen Messengers of Apostles.

  10. Revd. West, I do love your quote “Revd Robert West, on May 2, 2020 at 4:25 pm said:
    There is no scientific or empirical evidence for your theory of Evolution.”

    Everything is evolving, in the universe and life forms on Earth. If you study the fossil records, you will find your comment quite amusing. Unless you consider Trump is one, I don’t see too many examples of big dinosaurs running around. Flies, birds, lizards, big cats etc. etc. are evolved leftovers, morphing small except for some African wildlife. “Evolution” means changing environmental adaptive change.

    Yours is a “belief” system, it is not evidentially based. “People” wrote religious texts, often long after the events they described, to try to explain and interpret life and the natural world and events, and set rules, politically convenient at the time. But in no single document has your god signed a single copy. So there is no verifiable “evidence”. People need ‘leaders’. There are many ‘gods’ earthlings have created, they can’t all be right. And to suggest this thing is roaming around dumping plague on everyone, to bring them back into line, is, well, just a little bit sick, isn’t it. I don’t see much ‘democracy’ in this.

    What amuses me is there many ‘gods’, claimed by man, setting different rules, in different cultures, exacting on non-believers punishments like execution, or torture, claiming mostly divine crimes against humanity, for non-belief, that have forged sub-sets of culture, that is cruel in the extreme, often against women and other vulnerables. There is no uniform ‘god’, and no-one even knows what they look like, beyond human depictions, which in some cultures, are prohibited . But all the fire and brimstone stuff, oh dear. To this extent, there is limited evolution hhehe!! . Thank goodness for peer reviewed Science, that does evolve with increased knowledge, that does yield evidence you can slap on the table.

  11. All the layers of sedimentary rocks were laid down at the same time and very rapidly; otherwise they would not have fossils in them (which have to be buried rapidly for fossilisation to occur). And what you think of as Evolution is just the tree of life from amoeba to man; the many gaps between them, showing that there is no viable way for one life-form to gradually be upgraded to a higher one. Water does not lay down just one substance for millions of years as the Evolutionists claim happened; otherwise, it would only be carrying one stuff for millions of years, which is clearly daft.

  12. Any God that would send a crazed oaf like Donald Trump as his representative is not a God I want anything to do with.

    • Donald Trump was voted in by the American people and is due to stand for re-election this fall. If you do not like him, and you are an American citizen, you can vote against him and may, or may not, see him out; depending on the outcome of the vote. So, what are you murmering about?

      • Revd. West, more rubbish from you. To vote in America, you have to pay, and lose a day’s work travelling to the booth. Most poor people cannot do this, so voting in America is for rich people only.

        On evolution, you don’t need such time as you are purporting to see genetic changes

      • The genetic changes that we see in species are in the wrong direction: they are downwards. You cannot earn pounds by losing pennies.

      • Well, these days, it is better to have small change in the pocket, than no change at all !!

        Genetic evolution is slow by human time-scales, but not by earth timetables. It adapts to the climate, water-levels, and a million other influences

      • No: the small genetic changes that occur are DOWNWARDS: that means that they are not upwards; they are NOT evolutionary therefore, even in a micro sense. By going down you are not, over time, going to go up. Micro-evolution, as it is sometimes and wrongly called does not lead to Macro-Evolution because it is going in the wrong direction; it is not evolution at all. As I said, there is no empirical evidence for evolution. Let us be clear: Science is against Evolution.

      • I’ll be clear ! Nonsense. For example; Genetic changes happen quickly in viruses. Cold viruses, which are one of 400 strains of coronavirus change every year. Retroviruses also evolve, to counter anti-virals in obvious cases. There are academic disagreements on the degree of selective evolution, and time-scales, but that it happens, is not in dispute. Evolution can be defined as “adaptive change”. The laws of nature are “adapt or risk going extinct” because of changing, and challenging environments over large and short time-scales depending on the organism you are studying. Birds, for example, have shrunk over millions of years. A bacteria can alter in 20 years or less, to the point of becoming resistant to antibiotics. So what you are claiming is nonsense, really, I’m afraid . What does not evolve is religious dogma and fantasy !!

      • Hold on – genetic changes happen quickly in viruses, agreed; but are they upwards leading to evolution (micro, then macro) or are they downwards leading to devolution (micro and then extinction)? The answer is that they are micro-devolutionary; and that will quite clearly lead to them dying out, not evolving. You are misreading the evidence. As I say, there is NO EVIDENCE, empirically or scientifically for Evolution.

      • What are you talking about ? Virus and bacteria evolve genetically to survive, not to go extinct !! The driver is often, but not always, anti-virals and antibiotics. There is plenty of evidence for selective evolution, but there is academic argument as to what degree this plays in change. If a plant changes, the viruses and bacteria that live off the plant, also try to change to survive. This can be seen where a crop is modified by man, for example, by selective seeding. If a crop that is not indigenous is introduced, you can see changes in the wildlife that can parasite the plant. I really don’t know what point you are trying to make, other than support your biblical belief system. But to suggest that change does not happen over time, defies analysis and evidence. I would suggest a little study into antibodies and immunity, where there is ample change. Even a strange man like Johnson, has some notion of this, with his vile “herd” immunity strategies. That can be ethical with a non-lethal virus, but to allow a lethal virus to spread around, just shows what he is. He may have different ideas now, evolved from a nasty experience !!!

      • I have already said that all of us see genetic change: what I have denied is that this is either upwards or macro (a lower life-form into a higher one). What I have conceded is that the genetic changes are both micro and downwards. Now obviously a natural selection process will work on these changes and will eliminate many, that is extinction; and favour some – but that is not evolution, not even micro-evolution. What it is, is micro-devolution of some and extinction of others. You do accept that extinctions take place. What you need to see is that micro-evolutions do not; they are micro-devolutions. That is all you are seeing.

      • There’s a guy advertising in the internet for an ‘argue-partner’, no matter how silly the argument, just for the fun of arguing to relieve the tedium of lock-down. Is it you, arguing against the obvious ? To claim there is no empirical evidence for evolution, makes me laugh !!!

      • As I have said, there is no evidence for evolution; what you are seeing are genetic changes downwards: the elimination of some by natural selection and the favouring of others by the same. But that is not evolution.

      • Your field of vision is as narrow as a laser beam lighting up your bible. Not only do viruses mutate, but e.g. plants, mutate as well, in competitive defence to parasites, creating physical changes over time. Some scientists believe that if viruses did not exist, evolution would have been partly arrested. Until the 1980’s it was thought that humans had been on the planet for 3 million years, but archaeologists have pushed this back to nearer 4 million years now. And look at the diversity in pigmentation, bone structure etc. Caused partly because of environmental needs like climate, hot / cold, and partly through inter-breeding. All life evolves and changes over time. As I suggested, if you want to know more, you can start with antibodies and immunity. That is a very interesting subject showing the dynamics of evolution. I had to study it (with pleasure) for my degree in psychology, in terms of the autonomic nervous system and immunity.

      • I agree that all living things mutate: but that is genetic change downwards; it is not micro-evolution upwards. A mutation is a loss of genetic information; not the creation of new information. In order to have evolution of any kind you are going to have to have new genetic information in the genome of the living thing; that is what you do not have, and that is what you cannot explain.

    • Well said Eric, totally agree on Trump !! All this god damnation stuff is the Prophet-profitable lucrative business of fear instillation and manipulation. Total junk from start to finish.

    • Dear Eric, And in American voters having to be rich to vote, as they have to pay for the privilege, and lose a day’s work getting to the polling station, the majority of poor people are seldom represented, so what does America get ? A ‘leader’ that butters up the rich !! And in the case of Trumpeter, is nuts !! And who does not care about health for all, either

  13. I profoundly disagree with you on “downwards” as you put it, but I don’t have time this week to further argue, as I am tied up with prosecutors in international cases we are proceeding, and I need to concentrate.

    • I thank you for your interaction and appreciate that other things have to take priority for you. However, I would re-state that the genetic changes are downwards; that natural selection eliminates many of these but allows some through to predominate; but that this change is devolutionary and degenerative, not evolutionary; and so the whole basis for the theory of Macro-Evolution, namely, a supposed micro-evolution, does not happen. If you wish to interact at some other stage, please do; and I wish you well in your work further this week.

      • Revd. West, you only tell me I am wrong, but whereas I gave you a number of examples where evolutionary change can be seen to have happened, you have given me not a shred of an example to the contrary. I can “debate” with scientists, and do sometimes, particularly in my own field of research, memory, as a psychologist, which includes evolutionary changes, but to “argue” with religious dogma, is to lose the time. To suggest as you are suggesting, that changes in genetics do not happen is akin to claiming that the moon is made of cheese, and the earth is flat. Everything changes over time, you have to go back nearly 4 million years to see how humans have evolved, largely through intermixing, creating many new skeletal, pigmentation, differences in plain sight. You think man and woman popped out of a god’s command, and have remained as such ever since. It’s crazy. And the moon is made of cheese, really !! Sorry, very busy and no time for such . Strange how after 4 million years, your god has suddenly popped up from only just the last 3 thousand years ago, more or less . It has no sense. Your god would have been around 4,million years ago if what you are saying was true. It is humans that create gods and leaders, not the other way round. “Prophets” found profit in investing in this notion, and this is evidence , as only “prophets” and representatives are ever seen, never the fantasy gods themselves, and all cultures have, and have had, their own ‘gods’ to explain the world. Evolution doesn’t mind what you think !! It happens regardless. Dogma never evolves, because behind it, is fear of freedom of thought. Thought for the night, because tomorrow I have an intense day in the reality of international law. Cheers.

      • Welcome back. As I have said, we do see genetic change, true; but that is not genetic change upwards even on the micro level: that does not happen. Your fellow-evolutionists have mistaken genetic change for change upwards; and it is the lack of that, from your standsight, which is the problem – indeed it is fatal for your theory of Evolution. Can you give one example of genetic change that involves the coming into being of new information, just one? Over to you.

      • Revd. West, nope, it’s over to you. I have provided a number of examples of evolutionary changes, and you have provided not one single example to the contrary, because you can’t. I think you like arguing for fun. You make dogmatic statements with no evidence, that goes against common sense. Ask a dog breeder who intermixes selectively to produce new relics. Oh, yes, and you are right of course, the moon is made of cheese, your god didn’t know what to do with it, so stuck it “upwards” in the air. “upwards and downwards” according to you. I cannot debate the absurd. The cost of doing what you are doing, is no one other than the religiously trapped, is going to take any notice of you. To suggest, as you do, that evolution does not take place, because it is “downwards” is so absurd as to warrant no further reply from me. Precisely why you cannot provide a single example to support your theory.

        Unless you provide testable examples I won’t reply further. Dogma is just that. Defies common sense. This is also why religious argument is normally ignored, because it has no sense.

        All you do is tell me I’m wrong, over and again. But provide not one single example to support your view. Evolution unfortunately upsets your religion so you brow beat and negate it. Your argument is no argument, it is religious dogma and to be ignored.

      • I admit that there are genetic changes but deny that these are the emergence of new information: something that would be needed if any kind of evolution upwards – to a new organ or a new kind of life form – were to be effected. You are not going to play. Fine. I did not think you would because new information to beget a new organ or something, just cannot spring into being. Kapput. No Evolution.

      • Rubbish. Every 10,000 years, the earth tilts six degrees towards or away from the sun. We are now entering a warm period. It will get hotter progressively for 10,000 years, where seas will rise, meaning less land, as the North ice melts. There is drought, due to the heat, and less rain. Then, in 10,000 years, there will be another ice-age. Each extreme point hot / cold, sees evolutionary adaption. Perhaps next time round, greater water retention organs. These 10,000 year cycles, that have happened over millions of years, are part of the motor for evolutionary adaption. Some life goes extinct, but the survivors, adapt. It has happened to mankind, as I have described, although intermixing is in that equation, and it will go on happening for more millions of years. This time, there will be records, last time, cave drawings. The very application of tools, has seen changes in brain organisation. Neuroscience sees potential for a stroke patient to learn to maximise, and teach other brain areas to partially do the job the damaged part cannot do, once the two month trauma cone has reduced. Use it, and over thousands of years, genetic adaption can accommodate the demand.

        Again, you have provided not a single example to the contrary, whereas I have described various examples. You think extinction, I say adaption. O.K. ?
        As I have said, I can debate with the open-minded, but someone locked in fantasy, no. Religion is man-made, and that need has also developed into hundreds of deities, over eons, as there is a need for a “leader”, but you sell punishment and death for “sins”. Hahaha!! Fear is not a good selling point . If your god was active, she or he would have appeared 4, million years ago, but just popped by to say hello, 3,000 years ago? Hhhehehe!! Bye !!

      • Once again you are assuming the very thing which is at issue, namely Evolution, and which you refuse to try to prove. This is not being open. As I have said, genetic changes do occur, but these are devolutionary and degenerative, not upwards or evolutionary. Clearly a hostile environment will shear off the less survivable, leaving the more survivable to flourish; but this is not evolutionary or upwards either, since natural selection/natural deselection will only be acting upon what is before it. Natural Selection/Natural De-Selection explains the survival of the fittest-to-survive but not their arrival. So, again over to you.

      • hehhehe!! and I’ll leave you with a thought. You have to ask where you were 4, million years ago. As energy cannot be destroyed, you have likely morphed back thousands of times in different forms, but with no memory of the previous. Buddhists, Buddhism is not a ‘religion’, but a way of life, believe the same. There is no evidence, but there is no evidence for your beliefs either, only historic records of representatives of your religion, many of whom have different expressions of historic politics. Either way, evolutionary change is in plain sight, and you have no evidence to the contrary, which is why you cannot give a single example, that there is only “downwards” to extinction as you put it. Both happen, “upwards” and “downwards” depending on the environments as I have described, and I have given you a number of examples. Pity you cannot do the same to prove your contrary theory, as there is not any evidence to the contrary. Evolution is a natural and logical changing process, and your opinions won’t stop it. Unless you can provide testable evidence there is no “upwards” evolution, there is no point arguing . I really don’t have time for closed minds. Goodbye.

      • We do have plenty of evidence to the effect that genetic changes are degenerative; leading ultimately to the species which is being effected by them, becoming inferior – for either survival or flourishing, or both – and then extinct. I suppose it is dysgenics rather than eugenics. It is a natural process and one that we can slow down but not stop. Even the Universe itself is heading in this downward direction, as Richard Dawkins admits; though he still stubbornly holds on, despite all of the evidence, to his myths.

      • Rev. West. 1) This universe is expanding faster, pulling apart gravitational masses. Likelihood is there are other universes, doing the same, getting closer, and this one will merge in trillions of light years to form new compilations. To understand these forces you only have to study the life cycle of a single star, which expands, and then forms a black hole, including post collisions. If you consider that other universes work the same way, there is probably a unification of gravitational forces to come, that will then result in a new unified Big Bang expansion of the larger entity.
        2) You never relate to the evolutionary examples I have given, and have contributed nothing to counter them. At the moment, the earth is entering a (10,000 year) hot cycle, and due to reducing resources, including mankind’s pollution, destruction of the environment, wars and hunting, the numbers of potential evolutionary life is in decline, so a slower process. When the next ice age arrives, the cycle will start up again, and there will be “upwards” as you put it, evolutionary movement, that will see new adaptions, as can be seen to have occurred to the lizard families, and indeed birdlife. Dog breeders know they can produce larger varieties by selective breeding, so your arguments do not stand up. The 10,000 earth year cycles, are a dot in comparison to the history of this planet, so environmental adaptive changes are slow to observe each slice of history. By to deny evolutionary changes occur “downwards” and “upwards” (and originally you claimed there is no evolution) is akin to saying there is no life on earth. Which is what you obsessively claim is going to happen, for your religious beliefs convenience. What you “sell” is death as your god’s punishments for what you call “sins” total extermination. It’s quite laughable, and for sure, in 10,000 years, the next cycle will produce humanoids that create a new god, unless science finally wins the mentality battle. The earth has biological dynamics; We are here, in a blip of time, because we can be, given oxygen and water and proteins. Get used to it. The only “punishment” is man destroying man, which can be at an individual level. But the planet’s dynamics will continue whatever you believe. It is independent of your belief.

      • You have surely got an ideological viewpoint but it is not scientific. As I have said there is no empirical evidence for genetic change upwards. Other universes? There is not a shred of evidence for that but then there never was for Darwin’s thesis either.

      • Dark matter to explain expansion, does not have to exist in the physical. It is a mathematical hypothesis, as there is insufficient actual mass to explain the accelerating expansion. The total mass of this universe is not known, only the visible part, but it is not unreasonable to consider an outside force is pulling it apart. As I have said there is empirical evidence for evolution, but you have to wait a year or two (joke) to see it. If you morph back in 10,000 years, then we can talk.

      • We know that the Universe is expanding but that does not mean that there are other Universes bringing that about – a Multiverse of the gaps: come on. Genetic change downwards (micro-devolution/micro-degeneration) will not lead to genetic change upwards (mirco-evolution), no matter how much time you give it: that is simple mathematics. But then reality has never been a problem for your conclusions of the gaps – missing links? Missing something.

      • Rev West, I haven’t a clue what you are talking about. But there again, I don’t understand why you are living in the twelfth century, with your god’s ‘punishment death for all, sins’ malarkey, (not a popular product these days), means multiverse, (a concept I was putting forward in scientific debates some 35 years ago, accepted mainstream now, as a possibility), quantum physics, and mathematical models are beyond you, because your mind is stuck in the 12th century. And on religion, an eminent Consultant psychotherapist I knew, used to famously say “If there are crumbs on the table afterwards, I will consider them” . That opposes your way of thinking. But we don’t live in early pre-science centuries of knowledge. You decry anything, from evolution to universe, that does not fit into your narrow perception. What is “missing” to quote you, is your general understanding of biogenics, dynamics, and gravitational forces that shape our environment. It is likely that it was the struggle against gravity, for competitive advantage in food gathering, that led to evolution of legs, wings, and the rest. Your “reality” is not mine, thank the stars. “Reality” ? What ? This thing you claim is roaming around dumping plague on everyone, to “collectively punish and kill all for “sins” of a few ” ?? Ha Ha. I do not believe you are posting seriously, you are out to irritate, because you never relate to what I write anyway. And worse, you make no sense. You are obsessed with ‘punishment death to all’ (collective punishment is a Crime against Humanity) “downwards evolution to extinction” you even think the universe is wearing out, you are a misery, really. Typical of the 12th century attitude. I have a 12″ Reflector telescope and the universe is a joy to see. It is one of my favourite hobbies. It is dynamic. Your arguments go to extinction, stuck in the past.

      • The Neo Darwinists still insist that Evolution is gradual and incremental despite the fact that these incremental links are all missing: and the Punctuated Equilibria (Stephen Jay Gould and company) brand of Evolutionists explain (away) this lack of evidence by saying that Evolution must have happened in rapid spurts that left no evidence. uhumm. So there is no evidence for Evolution – that is what the theory is based on.

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