Tim Marshall reports at Sky about the reaction to a recent piece he wrote concerning a mass wedding in Gaza:
…Then the grooms, aged about 18 to about 28. They are holding hands with their young nieces and cousins, little girls aged from about 3 to 8, made up to the nines, wearing white wedding dresses.
…Our report on this put it into context saying that it took place just a mile from the Israeli border and was a message from Hamas about its strength confidence and future fighters. Oh and that the brides were elsewhere. Pretty straightforward.
It never struck me for a moment that the little girls might later be described in the bloggersphere as the brides! How naive I am.
Dozens, and I mean dozens, of websites took the video of the event and wrote lurid stories about Hamas mass paedophilia with headlines about ‘450 child brides’, and endless copy about how disgusting this was, how it showed how depraved Islam is, et al, ad infinitum. Site after site jumped on the story, linking from one totally wrong load of rubbish to the next . I’ll give credit to Tundra Tabloids who at least took down the video, but most sites just ploughed on regardless.
The many websites that picked this up have responded in various ways: some issuing corrections, some quickly deleting their postings, and some insisting that it’s all true and that Marshall is trying to cover up the fact: “Why”, demands one site “would Tim Marshall defend the Gaza pedophiles?” One of the sites that decided to scrub was Robert Spencer’s Jihad Watch, which is worth noting as Spencer claims some sort of academic expertise on Islam. Of course, we know that child weddings do occcur in the Islamic world, but the idea of a mass child wedding becoming the focus for popular public celebration in such an urbanized environment as Gaza should have evoked some scepticism. Even WorldNetDaily has – grudgingly -debunked the tale.
George Readings recently posted a good article to the Spittoon which puts this kind of thing into some context:
The “argument” goes that Muslims believe Muhammad to be a perfect model for behaviour and therefore the fact of Muhammad’s marriage to A’isha somehow proves Islam to be a depraved religion…This attempt to aggressively apply a modern British definition of paedophilia to seventh century Arabia strikes me as a sign of severe anthropological illiteracy…
…Marriage to a pre-pubescant child with whom consummation occurs upon reaching puberty is not a model most people would be happy with in the modern world (although Bolivia sets the age of consent at puberty).
Which is probably why nearly all Muslim countries have reformed these rules beyond recognition. The age of consent in Algeria and Malaysia is 16, in Indonesia it is 19 for males and 16 for females. In Egypt it’s 18 for both and Tunisia 20. Reform has not, however, come to Saudi Arabia. Back in April the world followed the case of a mother trying to obtain a divorce for her eight-year-old daughter who had been married off by her father to a friend he owed a debt. In the end she succeeded and now there is even talk of Saudi Arabia preventing marriage before the age of 18.
In Christianity, the traditional story of the Virgin Birth is focused on a female who was probably supposed to be a young teenager at the time she is made pregnant; in the USA, some fundamentalist Mormon sects continue the practice of marrying older men to young girls. Most famously, the singer Jerry Lee Lewis – a member of the Assemblies of God and a relative of Jimmy Swaggart – married a 13-year-old cousin in Tennessee in 1957; reportedly, the girl at the time still believed in Santa Claus.
Filed under: Uncategorized
Any opportunity it seems to smear and defmae the religion and the more they invent such nonsense, the more the genuine argument for the failing so religion is drowned out by these nuts.
It is not a fight against religion!!! It is only a matter of fact that it becomes inhuman if children are being abused. Yes, I call this child abuse even if some of you feel that these children have been “acquired” by marriage. Can you just for one moment, imagine how it would be to see your daughter of 6 marrying a guy of 28 yrs old???? Children are considered as GOD. They should be protected and it is the duty of the parent. At 6 a child does not even understand what it really means to get married. At 11 years still, a girl is playing with dolls. Do you think a child can give consent to “have sex”?? I do not believe that any religion, or God would instruct us to perform such nasty thing like marrying a child. If we really want to follow religion, then put some common sense in it also. Ben laden also misinterpreted the Quran and killed so many people when in fact God asks us to love each other without distinction of race, color etc. I think it is high time to make a distinction between human beings and animals!!!
please read Article before commenting. Children over there were not brides of those men, your argument is invalid. People nowadays criticize everything without sufficient information.
“In Christianity, the traditional story of the Virgin Birth is focused on a female who was probably supposed to be a young teenager at the time she is made pregnant; in the USA, some fundamentalist Mormon sects continue the practice of marrying older men to young girls. Most famously, the singer Jerry Lee Lewis – a member of the Assemblies of God and a relative of Jimmy Swaggart – married a 13-year-old cousin in Tennessee in 1957; reportedly, the girl at the time still believed in Santa Claus.”
Drivel, nothing but drivel. Where is the beef?
“Spencer claims some sort of academic expertise on Islam” sounds more like a smear than recognition of his work, and George Reading obviously gets his info from Wikipedia instead of the real world.
Wishful thinking doesn’t make Mohammedan pedophilia go away.
So if the Prophet of Islam did have sex with Aisha, where are the children? Surely an intelligent person like you doesnt need to be told how young girls can get pregnant, even with forced sex? We’ve seen it in the news recently with the Fritzl case and the numerous similar cases concerning white, Western Christians (Lets put aside the Christian priests and their love for young boys for a second). There is no record of any children or any STD that might have prevented pregnancy. There is also no record of Aisha showing the signs that are associated with raping a very young girl. On the contrary, Aisha grew up healthy, both physically and mentally and, like all the Prophets other companions, loved him and cared for him.
Looking at Judaism and Christianity on the other hand. We already know that Christian leaders love to practice some naughty monkey acrobatics with their altar boys. As for Judaism, lets take a look:
“Said Rabbi Joseph, “Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And one can be liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating, to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer [of what lies beneath]. If she was married to a priest, she may eat food in the status of priestly rations. If one of those who are unfit for marriage with her had intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If any of those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her had intercourse with her, he is put to death on her account, but she is free of responsibility [M.Nid. 5:4].
Sanhedrin 7/55B [132]
R. Nahman bar Isaac said. “They made the decree that a gentile child should be deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15], so that an Israelite child should not hang around with him and commit pederasty [as he does].”
For said R. Zira, “I had much anguish with R. Assi, and R. Assi with R. Yohanan, and R. Yohanan with R. Yannai, and R. Yannai with R. Nathan b. Amram, and R. Nathan b. Amram with Rabbi [on this matter]: ‘From what age is a gentile child deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15]’? And he said to me, ‘On the day on which he is born.’ But when I came to R. Hiyya, he said to me, ‘From the age of nine years and one day.’ And when I came and laid the matter before Rabbi, he said to me, ‘Discard my reply and adopt that of R. Hiyya, who declared, “From what age is a gentile child deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15]? From the age of nine years and one day.”‘
[37A] Since he is then suitable for having sexual relations, he also is deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [of Lev.15].”
Said Rabina, “Therefore a gentile girl who is three years and one day old, since she is then suitable to have sexual relations, also imparts uncleanness of the flux variety.”
That is self-evident!
Abodah Zarah 36B-37A [133]
The basis for these rulings is the following Mishnaic passage of Tractate Niddah (filth):
A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. “A girl three years old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse,” the words of R. Meir. And sages say, “Three years and one day old.”
And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And they are liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer. If she was married to a priest, she eats heave offering. If one of those who are unfit for marriage has intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If one of all those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her did so, they are put to death on her account. But she is free of responsibility.
If she is younger than that age, intercourse with her is like putting a finger in the eye.
(Mishnah Niddah 5:4) [134]
Thus, one “of the many important issues worked out in the Mishnah concerns proper conduct with women,” [135] and the “entire society of Judaism – that is, the community formed by the Torah – found in the Talmud those modes of thought and inquiry, those media of order and value, that guided the formation of public affairs and private life as well.” [136]
While it is reassuring to see there was at least some limit as to what the sages would declare holy and moral, this ruling had severe implications on the interpretation of other topics as well. The Tannaïtic Midrash Sifre to Numbers in §157 comments on the above quoted commandment of Moses to kill the Midianite women as well as the male children:
“Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that has known a man by sleeping with him.(Num 31:17).
[This] refers to her who has slept with a man as well as her who is suitable for intercourse, even when she has not slept with a man…
But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves. From here R. Shimon b. Yohai used to say: a Proselyte girl who became a proselyte in the age of less than three years and one day, is rendered fit to marry into the priesthood.” [137]
According to the Tannaïte Rabbis, Moses therefore had ordered the Israelites to kill all women older than three years and a day, because they were “suitable for having sexual relations.” [138]
——————————————————————————–
Bibliography:
[131] Ibid., vol.XXI.A-D, Tractate Bava Mesia, Atlanta: Scholars Press 1990, p.ix-x.
[132] Ibid., vol.XXIII.B, Tractate Sanhedrin 1984, 150. See also vol.XIX.A, Tractate Qiddushin 10a-b, 1992, 33. “Menstruating” here of course refers to the ritual “flux uncleanness” described in Lev.15.
[133] Ibid., vol.XXV.A, Tractate Abodah Zarah, 1991, 168. Emphasis original.
[134] J. Neusner, The Talmud of Babylonia. A complete outline, Part IV. The Division of Holy Things. B. Number 37. 1995, 704.
[135] Neusner 1993, 41.
[136] Neusner 1995, 7.
[137] Kuhn 1959, §157, 652f. My translation. In general, proselytes are not allowed to marry into the priesthood.
[138] Ibid., §157, footnote 86, 653.”
What many idiots like yourself fail to grasp is that Islam teaches one to live according to the rules of the time and place you are living in right now. In 7th century Arabia and even up to 1900s USA and the Western world, girls married very young. But why dont you see many Muslims in the West marrying so young? Because that would go against the teachings of Islam, to respect the law of the land and the time they live in.
As for Robert Spencer: he not some expert. Just lik many other idiots after 9/11, all he had to do was write against Islam and its “Crusade” (Hpw ironic coming from a Catholic) against the West and he would be deemed an expert. Anyone with an ounce of researching and argument skills can debunk the Jihad Watch website, as I have done on various forums when idiots like you copy and paste pages from the Jihad Watch website.
Just one more note on idiots like Spencer:
When was the last time you saw an anti-semitic bile spewing Muslim get called onto national TV to talk about Judaism and be called an academic expert in Judaism? Or when was the last time you saw Nick Griffin get called onto national TV and be deemed an academic expert on multiculturalism? Never. When it comes to news about explaining Christianity or Judaism, we dont see Muslims or Imams on tv talking to us, we see anti-Islamics like Spencer who, after one look at their works should be deemed extremely biased, tell us about Islam in the most depraved way. But there is one upside to that though: we finally see what kind of sick twisted minds people like Spencer are
Only the enormity of the alleged event should really make us stop and think. I know that this cannot be true. It just can’t. the reason? because I know palestinian people and they are not at all what slanderers are trying to describe. If you want to learn, then get to know in person. don’t rely on tabloids and “crusaders”. I am a Christian and the word “crusade” brings to my mind the dark ages. Let us get real, people. Islam and the muslim are not what the propaganda wants us to believe. We have freedom of will, we have minds, let us use them. and let us not allow anyone to lead us like lambs, using advanced technology to con us. You would be amazed to learn how easy it is to mislead people, to confuse the facts and to make lies look like truth.
[…] http://barthsnotes.com/2009/08/06/gaza-wedding-report-provokes-paedo-hysteria/ […]
Meh I made a mistake in my previous post but im sure ppl can see what it was and do a mental correction…
To “Me”
I don’t think there is a need to attack Christianity and Judaism in order to defend Islam. Your second post I agree with 100% though.
I think the problem is this attempt to apply the modern West’s obsession with sex and under-age girls, to every place and time.
This story is doubtful simply because Palestinians generally are more secular than most other Arabs, and it’s difficult to think they would hold such a ceremony, atleast so blatantly.
[…] which sites are these, and what have the various reactions been? Bartholomew gives us a hint, The many websites that picked this up have responded in various ways: some issuing […]
[…] – fresh from scrubbing details of the bogus “mass paedo wedding in Gaza” tale from his website – assures us that this is undoubtedly a “slow-motion honor […]
This time, the ‘Echo Chamber’ that was used to tell us lies about Saddam’s nukes–he didn’t have any–or his links to 9/11–there were none–are now being used to sell us BS about Palestinians, who the Israeli’s are trying to ‘wipe off the map.’
We’re supposed to swallow everything, w/o asking if it’s true and clamor for another war against another Muslim country, Iran.
While we’re bombing the hell out of Iran, Israel will be blowing to pieces Gaza.
Good thing we’re a ‘Christian’ nation, right?
Just think how many Arabs we might of killed if we weren’t.
ust one year older than the age of Aisha when she married Prophet Muhammad – Peace be upon him – before 13 centuries. Stephen Robertson wrote in this regard: “In 1885, after the scandal which took place upon issuing the book of The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon, the English writer “Sted” unveiled trading in the young girls in London, and these campaigns became part of the war launched against prostitution in the United States. This scandal urged the British parliament to raise the age of consent from ten to sixteen and this attracted the attention of the American reformers to the law of their Country” (12).
[…] the original story that started the whole thing … no mention of mass child brides here though. Gaza Wedding Report Provokes Paedo Hysteria Bartholomew’s Notes on Religion Oh I forgot to say above …. in all Islamic weddings the women (including the bride) sit apart […]
i can’t blame any one for beleiving that these grown up men ACTUALLY married as husband & wife to under age girls.
You bunch of brain dead idiots, not that i blame you readers, but the actual reporters who know exactly what is happening.
1- NO one is legaly, sexually or religiously married to any one.
2- the reason these young men had little girls of a certain age WALK with them pretending to be brides, is because religiously they ( men) cannot hold a pubertised/ grown girl’s hand.
If you understand and study arab culture from THEM not a lying zionist, then you wil see it is practised and called a wedding to celebrate a sucsses.
Then again the hypocracy from Jews & Christians who critisize islam, from the BURKA to POLYGAMY, all originated from Judaism & Christianity.
eg: Rashi (Bereishit 25:20) states that Rebeca was 3 years old when Elizer took her to be marrid to Isaac
( sanhedrin 54b, 55a) which says sex with a boy under 9 is ok.
The Talmud is riddled with pedophile
[…] which sites are these, and what have the various reactions been? Bartholomew gives us a hint, The many websites that picked this up have responded in various ways: some issuing […]
Really?
So the “real” brides are elsewhere, somewhere, perhaps in the audience, perhaps not and every Muslim wedding features little girls standing in for the real brides because Muslim men cannot bring themselves to hold hands with mature women.
So if I perform a search for Muslim wedding photos, every photo I come across will feature little prepubescent girls standing in for the “real” brides?
Tell me, has there been a follow up on this story, one that features the “real” brides in question?
So if I perform a search for Muslim wedding photos…
Yes, obviously if your googling doesn’t find the photos you think should constitute evidence they must be guilty. Stupid.
[…] a huge surprise – in August 2009 Spencer did the same thing after disseminating the story of a mass paedophile wedding in […]
Wake up people this is Islam ,with suicide bombers,wedding with kids 6-10 yearls old.Suicide kids women and men its ok by Islam.
Pedohilia its ok by Islam,kill and kidnap its ok too – they call that war against freedom on demonstartion signs in London that say Sep 11 its just the begining
People wake up before they return this planet to 15th century.
You see real example – Europe destryoed by them!People save this planet from EVAL – Islam.
Your politics are nearly as bad as your grammar and spelling. Relax and read more books.
[…] he’s made an accusation that turns out not to be true or to be doubtful: in 2009 he deleted a bogus story about a mass paedophile wedding in Gaza, and at the end of 2010 he removed an account about a man […]
[…] her audience either an apology or an explanation. Robert Spencer behaves in the same way (see here and here for two examples). I’ll repeat what I’ve said before: any blogger dealing […]
[…] deletes material without making corrections if he knows that he can’t defend a claim (see here and here), but he also sometimes lashes out, accusing those who challenge an inaccuracy of […]
[…] deletes material without making corrections if he knows that he can’t defend a claim (see here and here), but he also sometimes lashes out, accusing those who challenge an inaccuracy of […]
[…] a serious case – although given what I know about Spencer’s shortcomings (e.g. here, here and here) I’d be surprised if it’s any good. But if Spencer was overlooked by […]