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English Defence League Announces Arrest of Leaders

A statement from the English Defence League is doing the rounds:

On Saturday 20th February 2010 Members of the leadership team of the English Defence League were arrested as they traveled to Scotland to support the Scottish Defence League demonstration.

While in custody the team members homes and families homes were raided by police armed with automatic machine guns which terrified the leaderships family which included small children and other older family members. Computer equipment was seized during the 3 hour raid.

Leadership team members were banned from attending any meeting with more than 3 edl members then bailed to return to a police station in Sheffield in the near future…

A video statement has also been released, explaining that “Tommy Robinson”, the EDL’s pseudonymous leader, has been arrested on “racial” charges, and that armed police allegedly raided both his home and that of his parents (the speaker then goes off-topic with an attack on the neo-Nazi Blood & Honour, who are the subject of a new report from the Centre for Social Cohesion and Nothing British). The speaker is standing in front of an upside-down Union Flag, which perhaps is a deliberate sign of distress; why the Indian flag to his left is also upside down is less apparent (thanks to a reader for spotting that).

A further statement adds:

On Saturday 20th February 2010, members of the English Defence League were denied their civil liberties when attempting to join the Scottish Defence League for a peaceful protest in Edinburgh… In the City itself, the Police threatened anyone who attempted to protest with immediate arrest. Meanwhile, far-left so-called ‘anti-fascism’ protesters were allowed to wander the streets without any Police opposition. These same protesters made numerous attempts to attack EDL and SDL supporters, while nearby Police officers turned a blind eye. It is clear that today’s Police actions were politically motivated and that the Police Force as a whole can no longer be considered to be politically neutral. They have chosen their side.

The last EDL rally, at Stoke, a police officer who tripped over was attacked by some EDL members, although others came to his rescue.

Across the Atlantic, Pamela Geller has been inspired to imagine the police coming after her:

Criminalizing anyone who stands up to the brutal and relentless islamisation of Western countries is the next phase in the implementation of sharia law (Islamic law) in the West. The EDL is painted as racist, as the tea partiers are painted as racists. I have seen their efforts. They counter the Islamic supremacism of Europe. The Muslim hordes here and here are protected speech. This is madness.

Who is next? Stephen Gash of SIOE, Anders Gravers (who spoke at my FDI  event at CPAC), Spencer, myself? That’s what’s coming. What a blow to the Europe/UK counter jihad effort.

It looks like Spencer, Gash, Gravers and Geller will have to step up our efforts.

Geller has always supported the EDL – Robert Spencer, however, made angry noises last year when it was suggested that he had been at a dinner in a London restaurant when EDL leaders had shown up (he made it clear that he had left before they appeared).

105 Responses

  1. Police are probably worried about the live feeds being broadcasted (already or beginning?) from the demos. I think it is part of their strategy to catch the Police out.

    Are the Police are forgetting about the law, or what?

  2. Richard – that is a brilliant photo.

    What could be more ironic than a man at a stand with his entire face covered, displaying a poster complaining about burkas (where the woman’s eyes are more visible inside her niqab than his own inside his balaclava)?

  3. The EDL arnt perfect but there not Nazis or facsists or racist. The left wing Nazis of this country see a English flag and automaticly start the ‘labeling machine’. Fuck you UAF, Nobody likes you.

  4. The powers that control our united kingdom are in meltdown.to deny a person the right to attend a SCOTTISH DEFENCE LEAGUE peaceful protest against islamist extremism is nothing less than treachery to all fairminded people.the people in charge of the justice system are traitors to the very existence of free speech ,they allow this country to be a hotbed for the radicalisation of young muslim men ,who then go out and murder innocent people..the politicians have not got the will to stamped out the rise of the islamist extremist,they have not got a solution.they can only try and silence us,this will never ever happen.we the people must unite against the political elite and bring them to there knees.

  5. @ Adrian Morgan:

    it may be an Irish flag or an Indian flag upside down

    • It’s an Indian flag, you can see it on the video. Thanks for spotting that, I’ve added the detail and embedded the video.

      • They’re not exactly your typical neo-Nazis are they! I’ve done some research into them, but there doesn’t seem to be much more than ‘you get what you see’. Searchlight couldn’t find anything damning either, even though they apparently had a mole in the group, (now discovered). I’d love to know what the actual arrest charges were.

        (Apparently “Tommy Robinson’s” parents are Irish, so it wouldn’t have surprised me if that had been an Irish flag.)

    • Thank you, and thanks Richard. for identifying it.

  6. The English Defence League also has Sikh and Hindu members which would explain the Indian flag.

  7. […] Richard reports: A video statement has also been released, explaining that “Tommy Robinson”, the EDL’s pseudonymous leader, has been arrested on “racial” charges, and that armed police allegedly raided both his home and that of his parents (the speaker then goes off-topic with an attack on the neo-Nazi Blood & Honour, who are the subject of a new report from the Centre for Social Cohesion and Nothing British). The speaker is standing in front of an upside-down Union Flag, which perhaps is a deliberate sign of distress; why the Indian flag to his left is also upside down is less apparent (thanks to a reader for spotting that). […]

  8. @Bob:

    The EDL ARE a bunch of nazis and racists, and football hooligans to boot, who thrive on violence and confrontation and are completely ignorant about the workings of European and English law.

    @Collins:

    There is no “Islamisation” of Europe or the UK taking place. That is just the latest boogeyman thrown around by the same right wing ideology that spawned the Nazis. Just like Jews werent taking over the world and the banks there are no Muslims taking control of anyone or country. If you were even a tad interested in the radicalisation of young men, you would know that the Iraq war and other things have done more to radicalise people than anything else that can be preached. Take off your blinders, ya nazi

    • There are plenty of ‘hooligans’ amongst their number, but that’s besides the point. There are also racists in there, but I certainly wouldn’t call them ‘Nazis’, unless you’re using it as a generic term, which isn’t useful. I’m not sure what relevance being ignorant of the law has to the matter either, unless you’d like to expand on the argument.

  9. You know the reasons why the speaker wore a face cover, I know this may seem ironic whilst we call for a ban on the burkha, This is clearly as the burkha is a security risk for this country and he is covered for his own safety as this country is harbouring many muslim extremists/terrorists, If the indian flag is upside down this is due to this press conference being hastely arranged! Big deal! Regarding the “Islamification of the UK” just take a drive around the country! Look at france, Look at holland, Look at greece? Is this a myth? I think not.

    • the members of Southall Black Sisters do not wear masks

    • That is actually really insulting, the national flag is a symbol, if you are going to display it, display it correctly. Indians actually take this very seriously, as there are strict regulations governing how and when to display the flag like this – obviously applicable only in India. It just demonstrates ignorance, laziness and contempt to me, to exhibit other people’s national symbols in such an incorrect manner. Haste is a ridiculous excuse; this is a PR exercise, if you can’t get it right, either take the time or don’t do it at all.

  10. does this meen the identity if Tommy Robinson will be revealed when he answers bail or will he insist on wearing a burka to the police station!!

    • Bail is not a court appearance, so I doubt his identity would be revealed, unless he is actually charged with something. (Even then, it might not be revealed.)

  11. Well i live in east London and have done all my 50 something years!
    It used to be a pretty nice place but now it more resembles Pakistan than the East end of London!
    Muslim gangs have taken over the streets and parks at night and are constantly fighting with anybody unlucky enough to walk past!
    I definately agree the immigration in this country has massively got out of hand and if something isnt done soon then im afraid we could end up losing entire citys to foreighn nationals!
    Well done to the English Defence League for standing up to brutal and oppresive relifgion and of course for standing your ground even when threatend with legal action!

  12. lol, that was good work. One to go, now I have the CSC on my radar.

    They all play the “We hate Nazis” card, yet they are more heinous than the Nazis they talk of.

  13. @James McGrath:

    Nazis because they want to paint the Muslims as being at basically being at fault for whatever’s wrong in society. The Nazis did this to the Jews during the Depression era and when Germany was crippled after the war. They took the actions a couple of Jewish bankers and painted that as some kind of Jewish plot to take over the world, starting with Germany. Then they said that Germany is where they would be defeated. The EDL is doing the same thing: claim that Muslims want to take over the world, and that this is where the last stand will be made.

    ignorant of the law because a huge numberof them actually think Sharia law can be applied in Europe and the UK just like that. Never mind the ignorance about what Sharia law actually constitues, what schools of law there actually are, it is impossible to just implement a totally new rule of law system just like that. It doesnt work that way. Hence they are ignorant about the workings of EU and UK law.

    @John Sheridan EDL:

    The Burka is as much a security risk as kitchen knives or alcohol. In fact, more crimes are committed using kitchen knives and after consuming alcohol than there have ever been committed using a burka. You want to ban kitchen knives and alcohol too? Thought so. This country wasnt attacked before we went to war in Iraq. Will the EDL protesta against the main source of radicalisation and demand we withdraw from Iraq? No. You wont. If the EDL was created during the last century, would you be doing all this against the IRA? No. Fact is that the EDL doesnt care about any religion, unless it is practised by a group of brown people who we are fighting an illegal war against the moment.

    As for “Islamisation”, thats total bullshit. Just because Muslims are practising their right to freedom of religion doesnt mean that they are forcefully taking over the world and either killing or converting you. If there are more Muslims in the EU now, then that means a lot of people are just seeing something positive in Islam you are not. This kind of argument is equal to the “Look how many Jewish bankers there are, they are taking over” presented by the previous groups that inspire the EDL.

    @Leon:

    And this is why we know that the EDL is a racist organisation, with supporters like these. Here we have someone who is afraid because apparently there are more brown people where he lives now. Sure he believes in equality, but too many brown people surely cannot be people. And instead of blaming the gangs for violence and trying to find out why gangs and violence go hand in hand in the first place, he blames the “Pakis”. Note how he never mentioned Muslims once. it’s the same thing with the EDL: Muslims are not a race so they cant be charged when they chant against Muslims. What they actually mean ofcourse are Pakistanis, as is demonstrated by this old geezer. Tell me, if you were living amonst the Bloods and Crips, would you join an anti-black or anti-Christian organisation? Because the same applies here. I for one cant wait when all the races of the world are mixed so we can say goodbye to racism.

    • Their message is targetted against Islamic extremism, so isn’t really much different to the protests against the IRA in the 70’s/80’s. To be brutally honest, your attempt to paint them as ‘Nazis’ is ridiculous, and mirrors the casual and cheap manner that words such as ‘racist’, ‘fascist’ and ‘Nazi’ are thrown around without any serious thought. Thanks to people like you, the true meanings of these words have become so ‘diluted’ as to make them worthless. As I said before, even Searchlight haven’t been able to produce anything to suggest concrete links with neo-Nazis, and if Searchlight can’t provide proof, then I doubt very much that you can. These ‘Defence Leagues’ are mostly an outlet for football supporters and other mainly working-class groups to voice their anger at what they (correctly, in my opinion) perceive as unrepresentative governance. It would have been better if they had chosen a broader message and different tactics, but, again, that’s beside the point. To compare them to Hitler’s Nazis and make parallels with 1930’s Germany is pathetic and frankly shows a clear lack of understanding of either pre-war European history or contemporary British socio-political issues on your part.

      As for your assertion: “it is impossible to just implement a totally new rule of law system just like that”; I am sure that you are aware of the many Sharia courts operating in England and that, should both parties agree, their findings are legally binding under the Arbitration Act (1996). These courts are allowed to deal with matters such as divorce, financial disputes and even domestic violence. So, a parallel law system is already in operation in the United Kingdom. (A small number of Jewish Beth Din courts also operate and take advantage of the Act to enforce their findings.) Perhaps the ‘Defence Leagues’ aren’t as ignorant as you make out. There are plenty of other individuals and organisations who also strongly oppose parallel legal systems, especially ones based on ancient religious belief systems. Are they Nazis as well?

      • They say their message is targeted at “Islamic Extremism”, yet they only protest in areas where non-extremist Muslims and Asians live, they attack homes and business of non-extremist Muslims and Asians and they spred literature about how all Muslims are commanded to kill non-believers. That is not targetgin “Islamic extremism”, that is targeting all Muslims. They dont care for extremists. If they did, they would be protesting only outside the homes of extremists. If they wanted to get rid of extremism, they would protest outside Choudry’s house or outside Nick Griffins house or at any known venue of the numerous violent right wing groups who preach hatred. But they dont. They deliberately target areas with Asians and Muslims who have nothing to do with extremism and attack them.

        Thanks to people like the EDL the true meaning of an “Islamic Extremist” has been so diluted that it is used to paint any Muslims who doesnt agree with them as an “Islamic Extremist”. Labelling someone a Nazi means that there are a variety of actions adn thoughts that person supports and or carries out that are reminiscent of the Nazi party in Germany in particular, but also the various Nazi supporters all over the world. We see the EDl and its fans spread literature on how Muslims want to take over the world, how theya re commanded to see any non-Muslim as filth and how they are commanded to lie. These are all arguments that the Nazis throughout the world have presented against Jews. If the EDl follows suit in this and other arguments that Nazis like to throw around, then I will label them as Nazi. just like they label any Muslim or Asian they like as an Islamic extremist. And yes, I do have a good grasp of pre-war Europe, Nazi Germany and the 2nd World War. If you’ve ever had history lessons in a European school, 90% of the curriculum is about that.

        The Sharia courts are merely arbitration tribunals. They are part of UK law and have been for ages. They allow people to settle matters however they wish as long as both agree and alleviate stress and costs from the legal system. They are not a paralletl legal system as they are governed by and are part of current UK law. As long as both parties are happy with the mediation and it;s accepted by the UK courts, there should be no problem. Whwen this act was passed no one give a flying about how people settled their differences. Suddenly now they are attacking Sharia courts. Why is that? Could it be that the literature and lies spread by the EDL about Islam and Muslims and world conquest and lying are starting to take hold and misguide people? Ofcourse not, you’ll say. Well, then show me the protests that took place when the act passed. Or when we had Ecclesiastical or Beth Din courts in this country for ages. You cant. Only now, after thlies and misinformation have been spread about Muslims and Asians by the EDL, just like the Nazis and their supporters did about the Jews and undesirables, are we seeing these protests. If the EDl are suddenyl so interested in 1 legal system, they should march against the Arbitration Act. When they march only against Sharia courts they are showing their ignorance of the law by not marhing what makes it legal and they are also showing their hate and prejudice by only marching against 1 set of arbitration tribunals, instead of the whole bunch. Why is that? Again, the reason is the lies and misinformation spread about Muslims and Asians by these Nazis, just as the groups that inspired them did, and still continue to.

  14. Damn keyboard and quick typing. Well, you can read past the errors.

    • We.you called me a nazi,you are deluded.you argue about radicalised because of iraq war.the young angry muslims hate ukgb.simple as that,with what you say you must be one of the radicalised islamists.what your lot are doing is treacherous.if they want jihad,then gat them all together set a time and place .and we shall see who you all are .lock you up no trial,if you don’t comply get out and set up in dubai or other.

      • It’s not that simple. You just dont hate something without a reason. Were there terrorsit attacks carried out by Muslims in the UK before we went into Iraq? No. On top of the Iraq war, we have daily articles in everything from the Sun to Sky News about Muslim terrorists and whatnot and how Muslims are violent and cheaters and fraudsters. All of that combined does more for radicalisation than any preacher ever could. if you want a recent example, jsut read the article above: the EDL has been targeted by the police and the EDL is responding now, feeling targeted and saying that there is a conspiracy against them. Yet they dont apply this same mindset to the Muslim youth who are being targeted daily. As always with Nazis: double standards.

    • Seriously, how do you know that all Muslims living in an area are non-extremist? They have protested in Birmingham and Manchester for instance, and I can certainly remember incidents of Islamic terrorists coming from those areas. They have plans for Bolton and Bradford; again, I can remember incidents of terrorists from those areas. I said above that I think their tactics could be different, but if their intent is to get their message out to as broad an audience as possible, and to as many Muslims as possible, then their choice of locations are the obvious ones! Your suggestion about demonstrating outside of people’s houses is crazy! At the moment they protest in town and city centres, but you’re proposing that they go into residential neighbourhoods, presumably in largely Muslim populated areas, and protest outside of front doors – and you think that’s a more sensible approach!

      You mention attacking homes and businesses, but I have not heard of a single incidence of a home being attacked. The only thing I can think of is when a local non-Muslim woman’s car got damaged in Stoke. As for businesses, I heard that a florist shop window also got broken in Stoke, but I have no reason to believe that the owners were Muslim. The only other incident I can think of involved a precursor group to the EDL, called the United People of Luton, who held a demonstration after the infamous scenes of Islamists taunting returning soldiers in that town. One man was injured and one shop was vandalised. Lastly, I understand that a mosque in Stoke had ‘EDL’ written on it. Naturally, all these cases are disgusting, but they hardly depict a bunch of Nazis and nor do they indicate a community under constant attack. I have seen some of their literature, but nothing saying that all Muslims are commanded to kill non-believers. I’d appreciate a link if you have one please.

      Likewise, you say that “we see the EDL and its fans spread literature on how Muslims want to take over the world, how they are commanded to see any non-Muslim as filth and how they are commanded to lie.” Again, I’d be interested to see some links to this literature please. Funnily enough, the literature you describe appears similar to things I have heard Anjem Choudary and his associates saying, so perhaps there is a link! You are still free to label them as Nazis as you wish; it is your opinion and your choice of words. However, I would say that if you are using such language, and telling others the same, then you are as bad as you claim the EDL are. (I would be saddened to find that the current history curriculum dedicates 90% of its time to the war-era. Saddened, but not surprised. Is that what you are saying, or am I picking it up wrong?)

      Claiming that the Sharia courts are not a parallel legal system is just being pedantic. It is ‘still’ Sharia law and not English law, however you want to dress it up. The EDL, and others, have said that they don’t want Sharia law in England; they are not asking for it to be incorporated into the current system! I suspect that you know this though, and I also suspect that you know that not everyone who attends such courts is going completely voluntarily and with the full knowledge of their options. Regardless, I personally believe in equality, and that means ‘one’ legal system. It took us over a thousand years to get rid of religious courts in this country; it would be disgraceful to reinstate them in any form. As to why no-one has ever said anything until fairly recently, I suspect that it was because no-one knew they even existed. I’ll admit that I was stunned when I first found out! As for the EDL’s message about ‘one law for all’, well that would obviously cover the Beth Din as well. Again, you keep shouting ‘Nazi’, but their actual message, if not their tactics, is one probably shared by most people in this country, if not Europe: kick out Islamic extremists; no Sharia / ‘one law for all’; no to the Burka; no more mosques. I don’t think you’ll get many arguing with the first two items. The second would probably be a split decision nationwide. The latter is obviously the most contentious, but from literature I have seen, there are three ‘sides’ to it. Firstly, ‘no more mosques until there are Churches in Saudi Arabia’. That sounds slightly childish, but it’s certainly a point for discussion. Secondly, no more mosques until there is a system of registration regarding Imams/preachers, to ensure that radical preaches can’t spread a message of hate. Thirdly, no more mosques being paid for by foreign money or run by foreign organisations. Again, a lot of people in this country wouldn’t argue with those points at this moment in time. You talk about the EDL targeting the whole Muslim community, but likewise the whole non-Muslim community is in fear of Islamic terrorists – and when push comes to shove, there have been numerous Islamic terrorist attacks (and failed/prevented attacks) in this country, whereas there hasn’t been a single ‘EDL’ terrorist attack!

      I’m not here to defend the EDL or their tactics. I stated above that I think they should change tactics and broaden their message. But neither could I defend your tactics. By calling them Nazis, you are basically inciting people to attack them. If violence does escalate, then it will be as much your fault as theirs. If they ‘are’ trying to provoke a fight, then you are doing the same. As the topic of this thread illustrates, the Police are perfectly capable of sorting out any problems themselves, if and when laws are being broken. You are increasing the problems that the Police have. Instead of keeping both eyes firmly fixed on the EDL, they are now having to keep one eye on you and those who share your views as well. I consider that to be wholly counterproductive on your part. However, I get the feeling that you are not the type of person who is willing to change his own tactics, so I don’t believe there is much point us carrying on backwards and forwards. If you would like to have the last word, please feel free.

  15. So if sharia courts are not a big deal then why are the muslim group one law for all holding demonstrations against them.

    These courts deal with child custody and the father is automatically given custody when the child reaches 7. Regardless of the welfare of the child. Muslim women are forced to agree to these courts by peer pressure.

    Forced marriages are ratified by these courts and young girls refused divorce.

    Saudi funded faith schools teach children to hate jews and some even get some funds from the early years trust, which means children as young as 4 are being taught to be racist.

    I’m a member of the EDL and I am not violent, not in any way a racist or a nazi and frankly, I’m sick of being labelled so by people like the UAF, who are all those things themselves by supporting such people.

    The police actions are an attempt to squash us and if they succeed, goodby our rights to protest and all other protest groups in the UK, including the UAF.

    Arthur.

    • Because they can. You see, that’s the beauty: if they want to demonstrate against them without violence or intimidation, they can protest. Heck, 1000s upon 1000s of Muslims and Muslim clerics and scholars have denounced terrorism and extremism. Yet the EDL continues to label Islam and extremism as one and the same thing. Why is that?

      Regarding your horror stories about the Sharia courts: there are no cases to verify what you have said. A right wing think tank even researched the courts and did not find a single thing that the court did that went against the law it is operating under. So you know what they concluded? “These Muslims must be lying and hiding the real horror stories from us!” Ye, thats right: they couldnt find any evidence of wrongdoing in these courts so they said that the Muslims are probably covering it up.

      From those 2 paragraphs it is quite clear that you are ignorant about the way Sharia courts deal with marriage, divorce and custody. And if you are an EDL member then this means that that is what the EDL keeps saying and you will continue to spread these lies to others regarding Muslims, thereby leading someone else into radicalisation against Muslims and Islam.

      I dont agree with what Saudiland does, as I have an extreme dislike for the House of Saud but I’m not gonna paint all Muslims by what the Sauds do. heck, even the Arabs living in Saudiland despise the House of Saud. Regardless, we have US funded organisations here supporting anti-homosexuality and spreading lies about gays. We have Christian fundamentalists preaching misogyny and hatred as well. Is the EDL going to march against them? No, ofcourse not.

      The UAF doesnt support extremists or terrorists. It merely exists to expose the hatred thrown around by the NF, BNP and now the EDL. I’m sure there are members of the EDL and BNP who are genuinely not racist, yet they have chosen to represent them an organisation which is steeped in hate, racism and prejudice against a minority group that has no way of defending itself. EDL members have attacked innocent Asian and Muslim homes, business and property. They have threatened to kill Asians and Muslims. They want to go to Ulster to kick up some more shit and violence. They have postson their forum talking about nuking Mecca and others agreeing with that. They spread hatred and lies against innocent Muslims by spreading lies and misinformation about Islam. They want everyone non-Muslim to fear and retaliate against what they deem to the be Muslims taking over. You may not be a Nazi or racist, but when a group portrays another group based on their religion and ethnicity in a way that is very similar to what the Nazis did, they will be called Nazis. This video goes to show that the EDL are inspired by violence and terrorism and want to imitate them, as they have chosen to copy their style of video as well.

      • “You may not be a Nazi or racist, but when a group portrays another group based on their religion and ethnicity in a way that is very similar to what the Nazis did, they will be called Nazis.”

        So when extremist/Salafist Muslims call non-Muslims Kaffir and describe all Jews and descendants of apes and pigs, will you also be calling them “Nazis”?

      • You didn’t research one law for all then, if you did your reply would have, perhaps, been different.

        Now Maryam doesn’t agree with the EDL protests, but she is a muslim and surely she should know.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOdEK4tZJpI

        Now if you bothered to do a bit more research you may have discovered the news night report on the schools.

        I take you missed recent news about radicalisation in our unis, Also bit of a coincidence that last week the BMC asked for a government clamp down on the EDL and this week our leaders are arrested.
        This is plain and simple electioneering by a government looking for the muslim vote. No, they couldn’t be that cynical, could they?

  16. @Adrian Morgan:

    Yep, if they call people that then I would label them as racist and intolerant as well.

    As far as I know, kafir is just another word for unbeliever. Calling Jews descendants of apes and pigs is not something the mainstream Muslims do. Like I said, every religious group has its idiots. The problem arises when you blame the entire religious group for what a few do.

  17. Nobody can deny the fact islam and the constant demands made to appease radical elements of the muslim community need to be challenged, but faceless hiding of identities behind balaclavas will only add to nazi accusations ,if the EDL wish to be taken seriously by the british majority then they need to have the courage and conviction behind their cause demonstrated by leaders brave enough to show their faces like the dutch politicion they are supporting and even griffin shows his face to the media,,, how can they expect an unbiased media coverage and sensible supporters being encouraged when expectations are to follow a faceless stranger.

  18. Perhaps if the kind of security and protection offered to the likes of Geert Wilders and Nick Griffin, were available to ‘Tommy Robinson’ he would show his face!

    It is indicative of the nature of the enemy the EDL speaks out against that there is a need to maintain anonimity.

  19. Look to Theo Van Gogh if the consequences of being recognised to oppose militant Islam are in any doubt.

  20. Wow! I realised everybody is Nazi , so I take my comment about CSC back. So what is going to happen when everybody calls the other Nazi. When will Nazis begin to sue people for the wrongful use of “Nazi”?

    CSC is the group who recruited Jenvey, CSC is the group who thinks a lot about India thanks to a single donor well known in media. Yet the same pattern repeats itself with groups such as EDL and other “Anti-Jihad” or any other “Anti-Islamification” groups. The only new addition I have seen this week is the Jamaican flag.

    Who did BNP recruited for its “multi-ethnic” image; an older Jenvey. These people are more like friends than the enemies they claim 24/7.

  21. @James McGrath:

    “Seriously, how do you know that all Muslims living in an area are non-extremist?”

    And how do you know they aren’t? Why protest in an area with a large population of Muslims and or Asians or near a mosque when you keep spreading lies about the people in that community? To stir up hatred and discontent, that’s why.

    “They have protested in Birmingham and Manchester for instance, and I can certainly remember incidents of Islamic terrorists coming from those areas. They have plans for Bolton and Bradford”

    They marched in Manchester and attacked Asians and their property and intimidated them. There are videos and pictures of them doing the Hitler salute and singing songs about they hate “Pakis” and how they want “Pakis” to get out. I don’t support what Choudry did, but how is what the EDL does any better than what he did in his marches?

    “but if their intent is to get their message out to as broad an audience as possible, and to as many Muslims as possible, then their choice of locations are the obvious ones”

    Of course, march in Bradford. It’s not like race relations have been tense up there. Oh gee, I wonder what might have happened in Bradford some time ago… You know? They know. They know damn well what happened in Bradford and they want a repeat. And that is the message they send to the Muslim community: “we don’t care who you are, you are with us or with the extremists and either way we will march against you and stir hatred against you”.

    “Your suggestion about demonstrating outside of people’s houses is crazy! At the moment they protest in town and city centres, but you’re proposing that they go into residential neighbourhoods, presumably in largely Muslim populated areas, and protest outside of front doors – and you think that’s a more sensible approach!”

    Not really. If they want to protest certain groups, go to the actual location. Closing down city centres and intimidating people and the community in a city will make that community oppose you, as we have see with the councils calling for the EDL marches to be banned or called off. Community cohesion is not the EDL’s strongest point and they know it. They want to undo years of hard work in a community in a couple of days.

    “You mention attacking homes and businesses, but I have not heard of a single incidence of a home being attacked. The only thing I can think of is when a local non-Muslim woman’s car got damaged in Stoke. As for businesses, I heard that a florist shop window also got broken in Stoke, but I have no reason to believe that the owners were Muslim. The only other incident I can think of involved a precursor group to the EDL, called the United People of Luton, who held a demonstration after the infamous scenes of Islamists taunting returning soldiers in that town. One man was injured and one shop was vandalised. Lastly, I understand that a mosque in Stoke had ‘EDL’ written on it. Naturally, all these cases are disgusting, but they hardly depict a bunch of Nazis and nor do they indicate a community under constant attack. I have seen some of their literature, but nothing saying that all Muslims are commanded to kill non-believers. I’d appreciate a link if you have one please.”

    I suggest you read up on the UAF reports and look at the videos and pictures of the marches. There are records of EDL members attacking cars with Asians in them, intimidating shops and property and all kinds of other stuff. On the EDL forum on Wake’s site they want to copy the leaflets by SIOE and hand those out to “educate the people on Islam” as they put it. Naturally, those leaflets are filled with what I said earlier and most of the EDL members on their own forums seem to agree with them.

    Then you have posts on their forum recommending nuking Mecca and number of posts supporting that notion. You have EDL members calling Muhammad all kinds of names, knowing full well that ALL Muslims, not just the extremists, hold him in very high regard. You have pictures of EDL members with guns. You have them saying how they want to kill Muslims on Youtube. You have mosques being defaced with the Jerusalem cross. You have the EDL adopting this Crusader fetish, knowing full well the atrocities committed by the Crusaders upon Muslims and Jews. They do all of this and then they say “We don’t hate Muslims”. Yeah, right. There is a ton of evidence out there and I suggest you actually look it up. The EDL hates Muslims. And if we are to go by the videos of their marches where they chant against “Pakis” they are also racist.

    “Funnily enough, the literature you describe appears similar to things I have heard Anjem Choudary and his associates saying, so perhaps there is a link!”

    Yep, they are just like him and his ilk. No different.

    “However, I would say that if you are using such language, and telling others the same, then you are as bad as you claim the EDL are.”

    EDL claims:

    *Muslims want to conquer the world

    *Muslims want to conquer England they need to be stopped now

    *Muslims are conquering the world and England through “stealth jihad” and imposing their law

    *Muslims lie

    *Muslims want you dead

    *Mosques talk about unbelievers/non-Muslims and tell Muslims to lie, cheat, steal and kill

    I don’t know about you, but if i change the word “Muslim” for the word “Jew” I seem to have something that resembles Nazi propaganda. I suggest you look up what Nazi propaganda actually said about the Jews, and then compare it to what the EDL keeps saying. There are various archives of Nazi propaganda online. For educational purposes.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that the EDL associates itself with people who also keep spreading these lies. From Pam Geller to a whole host of other Islamophobes from the SIOE and the right wing nut jobs in the US. The platform the EDL is marching on is like honey for Nazis. You will have noticed how lately even EDL members have been complaining about Nazis in their ranks and how they are growing. Fact is that the EDL has lots of Nazis in its midst, as recorded by the UAF. It’s no surprise though: any organization that follows and or espouses Nazi ideology and thought will attract other Nazis.

    “I would be saddened to find that the current history curriculum dedicates 90% of its time to the war-era. Saddened, but not surprised. Is that what you are saying, or am I picking it up wrong?”

    From my experience that is what it seemed like. I’ve studied in 2 European countries known for their educational system and in history lessons we spent about 10% on the Industrial Revolution and the history of the actual country we were in and the rest was about events from WWI to post-WWII.

    “It is ’still’ Sharia law and not English law, however you want to dress it up”

    If two people want to settle their differences outside of court and nothing is forced, it’s not up to you and me to force them to settle it any differently. If you take away the legitimacy of these courts, which would be illegal without a repeal or amendment of the act, does that mean Muslims will stop taking advice from their Imams and Scholars? No. For centuries religious people have sought their Synagogue/Church/Mosque’s intervention and advice in their life, be it personal, religious or legal. Do you think they will stop? Do you think people will stop getting married in mosques? No. Why not control what happens instead of pushing it away from the eye of the legal system?

    “The EDL, and others, have said that they don’t want Sharia law in England; they are not asking for it to be incorporated into the current system!”

    It’s not going to be incorporated into the current system. There is not a single shred of UK law that says that it will incorporate Sharia law above UK law.

    “I suspect that you know this though, and I also suspect that you know that not everyone who attends such courts is going completely voluntarily and with the full knowledge of their options”

    No proof of this. Lots of people have tried to infiltrate these courts and see what they do and there is no evidence of this. The Sharia courts have acted within the powers given them by the Act and nothing more. They haven’t dealt out punishment for criminal conduct or whatever else.

    “As to why no-one has ever said anything until fairly recently, I suspect that it was because no-one knew they even existed.”

    People knew that religious courts existed for a long time. Christian and Jewish religious courts have been here for a very long time, but even now, the EDL doesn’t march against them. Surely they would not want Jewish law to apply? Or Christian law? Or is it just Islamic law that pisses them off?

    “Again, you keep shouting ‘Nazi’, but their actual message, if not their tactics, is one probably shared by most people in this country, if not Europe”

    Making Hitler salutes, singing racist songs, spreading around the myth about “Protocol of the Elders of Mecca” namely that Muslims ant to conquer the world either through force or “stealth jihad”, that Europe is turning into Eurabia and more is not consistent with the actions of the majority of people.

    “kick out Islamic extremists; no Sharia / ‘one law for all’; no to the Burka; no more mosques. I don’t think you’ll get many arguing with the first two items. The second would probably be a split decision nationwide. The latter is obviously the most contentious, but from literature I have seen, there are three ’sides’ to it. Firstly, ‘no more mosques until there are Churches in Saudi Arabia’. That sounds slightly childish, but it’s certainly a point for discussion. Secondly, no more mosques until there is a system of registration regarding Imams/preachers, to ensure that radical preaches can’t spread a message of hate. Thirdly, no more mosques being paid for by foreign money or run by foreign organisations. Again, a lot of people in this country wouldn’t argue with those points at this moment in time”

    Except of course there is no definition of an “Islamic Extremist” with groups like the EDL. They label all Muslims as extremists by spreading lies about their religion and culture.

    The whole “No to the Burka” campaign is more bullshit. You cannot force people NOT to wear a religious item just like you can’t force people TO WEAR a religious item of clothing. Forcing someone not to wear what they want is just as bad as forcing them to wear what they don’t want. It is not up the government to decide what women should wear or not. All we can do is make sure that the legal system deals effectively with people that force others.

    The “No More Mosques” campaign is even more stupid; made even stupider by the argument that first there should be churches in Saudi Arabia. To show how stupid this argument is, please answer the following question: should we ban black people from taking office or buying land in the UK until white people are allowed to do that in Zimbabwe? Hell no. What the House of Saud does in Saudi Arabia should have no bearing whatsoever on what the mostly Pakistani Muslim community does here in the UK.

    If you want preachers for mosques to be registered and ban foreign funding for them, apply the same to Christians and Jews and all other religions and their institutions. After all, you said you are all for equality.

    “You talk about the EDL targeting the whole Muslim community, but likewise the whole non-Muslim community is in fear of Islamic terrorists – and when push comes to shove, there have been numerous Islamic terrorist attacks (and failed/prevented attacks) in this country, whereas there hasn’t been a single ‘EDL’ terrorist attack!”

    Those terrorist attacks have their motives in our involvement in an illegal war in a country far away. The EDL is new. Just wait until more and more Nazis join and the police gets tougher on them. Even that perennial moron Nick Griffin sees what the EDL will cause: a huge race riot.

    “By calling them Nazis, you are basically inciting people to attack them”

    By calling Muslims killers, liars, cheaters, fraudsters and paedophiles, the EDL is doing the same.

    “If violence does escalate, then it will be as much your fault as theirs. If they ‘are’ trying to provoke a fight, then you are doing the same.”

    Yes, I, a person who is sitting behind their computer and has never participated in any protest will be just as culpable for EDL violence as they are… I don’t think so. If the EDL want to be compared to me, let them sit behind their desks and write about “Islamic Extremism” and how to stop it instead of marginalizing an entire ethnic community and forcing them to oppose the EDL.

    “You are increasing the problems that the Police have. Instead of keeping both eyes firmly fixed on the EDL, they are now having to keep one eye on you and those who share your views as well.”

    What views are those? That the EDL need to be banned because they ascribe to Nazi ideology when it comes to ethnic minorities? That they are racist and there is proof of that? Have I participated in any protests against a minority group? Have I encouraged going to Ulster to riot? Have I spread lies about an entire community? Have I planned a protest in an area where there were terrible race riots? No. I am no threat. I’m just someone posting on an online blog. My criminal record is completely clean and has been ever since I was born. I do not associate with extremists or racists or anti-semites. I don’t encourage others to march and I don’t commit acts of violence against the police. I am no threat. There is no comparison between the EDL and me.

    @Arthur:

    “You didn’t research one law for all then, if you did your reply would have, perhaps, been different.”

    Let me guess: they want to ban Sharia courts and only want “One Law for All”. Am I wrong? Maryam has every right to her protest. Of course she has no proof that the Sharia courts are what the EDL says they are. And surely, if Maryam wants one law, where are her protests against all the other religious courts? I may have missed that though, I just don’t research groups who put their ideology in their name.

    “Now if you bothered to do a bit more research you may have discovered the news night report on the schools.
    I take you missed recent news about radicalisation in our unis, Also bit of a coincidence that last week the BMC asked for a government clamp down on the EDL and this week our leaders are arrested.
    This is plain and simple electioneering by a government looking for the muslim vote. No, they couldn’t be that cynical, could they?”

    I’m sure there are certain organizations whose intentions are not good. But did these people act out before we went to Iraq and murdered 100s of 1000s? No. What is radicalisation and what is debate? Can you distinguish between heated and controversial debates and actual radicalisation and incitement of hatred? And how are those groups any different to the neo-Nazi groups at certain universities.

    See, this is the problem: no equality. When will the EDL march against the BNP and its racist, anti-semitic and misogynistic views? When will the EDL march against violent neo-Nazi groups? When will it demand we withdraw from Iraq and stop killing innocents and bring our soldiers home which it cares so much about? When will it demand fair and honest reporting from the media for itself AND Muslims? Never. Because the EDL doesn’t stand for all of that. It stands for confrontation and intimidation and everything else is just an excuse for the aforementioned.

    @belcka:

    “Nobody can deny the fact islam and the constant demands made to appease radical elements of the muslim community”

    There are is no appeasement going on. Muslims are just practising their freedom of religion. Some people accuse me of throwing around the Nazi label willy nilly, yet what event in European history is associated with appeasement? That’s right: the appeasement of the Nazis. The argument put forward that the government is appeasing Muslims combined with various quotes from Churchill show the people who present this appeasement argument are calling the Muslims nazis. Yet no one will call them on that. Funny how that works.

    @pete:

    “It is indicative of the nature of the enemy the EDL speaks out against that there is a need to maintain anonimity.”

    Nick Griffin says the same thing and worse about Islam, yet he doesn’t need to hide and I don’t think he has been attacked by Muslims.

    “Look to Theo Van Gogh if the consequences of being recognised to oppose militant Islam are in any doubt.”

    I always find it funny and sad that people throw van Gogh into the mix whenever talking about Muslims, yet they never mention Pim Fortuyn. Fortuyn basically started the anti-Islam movement in Holland after 9/11. He went on and on and said the vilest things about the Muslims, Islam and Muhammad. In the end, he was gunned down. Not by a Muslim or ethnic minority, no, he was gunned down by a Militant Environmentalist Christian born and bred in Holland who said he was a danger to Holland and its peoples. The van Gogh supporters, not really supporters, just vultures trying to make their argument fit around him, completely disregard what happened to Fortuyn simply because the person that killed him wasn’t a Muslim. Where is the outcry against Christians or environmentalists?

    That’s right, nowhere.

    • They marched in Manchester and attacked Asians and their property and intimidated them.

      Well thats a lie, because from picadilly train station to picadilly gardens they were either bussed in or were under tight police control, so please before making these stupid ass comments actually get your facts correct.

      • I believe it was the Manchester amrch where they surrounded a bunch of Asians in a car and where they chanted about Pakis. I may have got the place wrong as I watched the video some time ago

  22. Let me make it clear:

    I am sure there are members of the EDl who are genuinely not racist or fascist or violent and don’t think about Muslims in a bad way, just like some members of the BNP. Unfortunately for them, just like those members of the BNP, they have chosen to represent them an organization which IS all of these things. If the EDL actually wanted to oppose extremism, it should have started as a community group drawing in Muslims and mosques and encouraging peace and friendship and understanding between the Muslim and non-Muslim communities and then formed a united, defiant front against extremism. Unfortunately, they didn’t.

    • Although I said above that there was no point going backwards and forwards, I will point out one part of your response:

      “I suggest you read up on the UAF reports”

      Now, either you know who is behind the UAF or you don’t. If you do – and you quote them as a reliable source – then you have totally discredited yourself. If you don’t know who they are then you should do some research, because believing what they say is akin to believing what Stalin would say.

      • Oh noes! The commnunist! They be taking over… Seriously, the UAF reports come with pictures and videos of the marches. I understand you support some of what the EDL does and you are quite right that they need to change tactics. If they continue the path they are on now, they WILL be infiltrated and taken over by other neo-Nazi groups, as has been pointed out by the EDL’s own members. It’s time for the EDL to drop its support for Nazis and groups like SIOE and morons like Pam Geller and start to make connections and friends within the Muslim community and its youth organisations. If they want to actually draw in Muslims in stamping out extremism, then they should stop allying themselves with people who are clearly anti-Islam instead of anti-Extremism

  23. i can agree to your concerns relating to anonymity and Van Gogh but surley ex servicemen invited as guest speakers at EDL demos deserve the same protection the leaders seem to keep for themselves ,when they would be far more likeley to attract extremist attention having served in the gulf, yet they stand on a platform and preach to the crowd following an introduction from a masked leader,, this is my point and if it is so dangerous why invite guests to speak at such public demonstrations if their safety is at risk from militant reprisals

    • There are a host of other anti-Islamists doing the same thing, even worse theology-wise, than the EDL is doing when it comes to Islam. But the simple fact that they choose to keep hidden behind balaclavas shows that they know that the racist songs they chant too and lies and misinformation they spread about Islam and Muslims will not endear them to the Muslim community. Sad…

  24. @ We. I wish I had the time and inclination to address the whole of your comment but, unfortunately, have neither at this time so regarding your issue with my post…..

    “Nick Griffin says the same thing and worse about Islam, yet he doesn’t need to hide and I don’t think he has been attacked by Muslims.”

    The whole of my comment, if it had been quoted, stated that Nick Griffin is afforded professional security and protection. Unfortunately, the members of the EDL don’t have this luxury and are basically ‘sitting ducks’ for any reprisals. Furthermore, as I understand, the EDL leader who keeps his face covered, lives in a densely Muslim populated area which is also a known homeground of militant Islamics.

    Regarding Pim Fortuyn, I would have no problem with citing him as another example of the dangers of speaking out against Islamic fundamentalism. Surely the fact that he was gunned down by a religious fanatic (albeit of another denomination) simply further underlines the sagacity of anonimity!

    • As I stated in the post above, that just means that the EDL knows it’s actions regarding Islam and Muslims WILL not endear them to the Muslim population. There have been only a handful of homegrown terrorists who have attacked this country from within the Muslim community and they made their motivations quite clear: the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which btw have cost more than a million innocents their lives, and 1000s of our troops their lives as well. It’s time for the EDL to demand that we get our troops home so they can stop dying and innocent Muslims can stop dying as well.

      As for Fortuyn, dont count on it. The argument you presented is a staple of any anti-Islamic argument presented by the likes of Geller and Spencer. They will never acknowledge that Fortuyn was gunned down by a Christian environmentalist even though he said things worse than all of the anti-Islamics combined since 9/11. It’s unfortunate, but there will be no outcry about Pim, our corny, bald, gay professor…

  25. “As I stated in the post above, that just means that the EDL knows it’s actions regarding Islam and Muslims WILL not endear them to the Muslim population”.

    Are you saying that no one should speak out against Islamic extremism in case it offends the Muslim community?

    “It’s time for the EDL to demand that we get our troops home so they can stop dying and innocent Muslims can stop dying as well.”

    I’m sure everyone has their favourite cause they would prefer the EDL turn their attention to, however, they are a one-issue movement, not rent-a-crowd for hire!

    “They will never acknowledge that Fortuyn was gunned down by a Christian environmentalist”

    I believe this is documented fact and accepted as such.

    • “Are you saying that no one should speak out against Islamic extremism in case it offends the Muslim community? ”

      But the problem with groups like EDL that they cannot distinguish between extremists and Muslims. Are you saying that if I were to say positive things on EDL forums about Muslim and Islam I would not be inundated by posts about how Islam is violent, Muslims kill and how Muhammad may have been a paedophile? No chance. When teh EDl attacks Muhammad and Islam and traditional clothing instead of actual extremists, the Muslim community will put them in the “Unfriendly, may be dangerous, avoid” bracket.

      “I’m sure everyone has their favourite cause they would prefer the EDL turn their attention to, however, they are a one-issue movement, not rent-a-crowd for hire!”

      They want to stop extremism and radicalisation. The war has done more for radicalisation than any preacher ever could.

      “I believe this is documented fact and accepted as such.”

      Only by people like me. I have to keep reminding the followers of van Gogh and Spencer and Geller about this little fact. Fortuyn was an incredible bastard when it came to Islam, yet the Muslims never touched him. Will his treatment at the hand of Muslims be shown as Muslims accepting criticism and not acting out? Unfortunately no…

  26. We, I’ve seen UAF pictures and videos and literature. They pull out pictures of a couple of morons who might be Nazis or whatever and then say that that proves that the whole of the EDL are Nazis. Obviously you believe them. More fool you!

    You talk about the EDL dropping its support for Nazis. What support? One of the first EDL videos I saw was of a group of white and black lads burning a swastika. Hardly supporting the Nazis is it!

    • I said that the EDL should drop its support for groups like SIOE and ppl like Geller and Spencer and engage the muslim community and the various Muslim youth organisations. If the EDL continues to support groups like SIOE and Spencer and keeps recommending their literature, it will keep forcing the Muslim community to distance itself from groups like the EDL instead of engaging in dialogue with them. Moreover, when Muslim groups ask the EDL for dialogue, as an Imam of a mosque did, they shouldnt reject it, but accept it and have an actual dialogue with the mosques. Unless the EDL does that, its Nazi contingent will grow and eventually it will collapse since the non-Nazis will leave and nothing will have been accomplished.

    • “We, I’ve seen UAF pictures and videos and literature. They pull out pictures of a couple of morons who might be Nazis or whatever and then say that that proves that the whole of the EDL are Nazis. Obviously you believe them. More fool you!”

      The question should be: why did those Nazis feel inclined to join the EDL in its march? Thats the whole point im trying to raise. The way the EDL works and the stuff it says about Muslims, it is BOUND to draw in people like those. Why do you think Choudry isnt welcome at almost all the mosques or Muslim organisations in the UK? Because hes a fucking bastard and the Muslims acknowledge that.

      The EDL, Choudry and Westboro Baptish Church in the US attract a certain kind of crowd. There is a reason for that. And the non-Nazi contingent of the EDL needs to see and understand this before it is too late for their organisation to go beyond the point of no return.

      • The number of real neo-Nazis in the UK is tiny. I mean absolutely microscopic – and far less than the number of Islamists of Choudary’s ilk. The reasons a few have attended EDL demonstrations are varied from what I have read (on the actual neo-Nazi forums). The simplest one is that they could never hope to arrange demonstrations as the EDL does; there simply isn’t enough of them, so they think they can hide in the EDL’s ranks, as long as they keep their arms down. Obviously, from the few pictures, they tend to fail at that last part. The next most popular reason is that they get to face ‘the Reds!’ They appear to hate them more than they hate even the Jews and Muslims. There are of course other minor reasons, but none of much consequence. That’s basically it – the chance of actually getting onto the street, plus the chance for a fight! If you read the forums for yourself though, you’ll find that most of them wouldn’t touch the EDL with a very long bargepole, simply because they think they’re a ‘Zionist’ organisation!

        My own concern is that by labelling the EDL as neo-Nazis themselves, you’ll help to turn them into something that they currently are not. If they think that they can’t even voice an opinion without being called ‘Nazis’, then you’re backing them into a corner – and I think they’ll come out fighting even more than they have done so far. Despite your descriptions above, the EDL’s demonstrations could hardly be classified as full scale riots! I’ve seen much worse in town-centres at chucking out time!

        As for dialogue with the Muslim community, I don’t think the EDL are the type of organisation that ‘could’ open up dialogue; it’s not in their nature. They really are a ‘grassroots’ bunch and they clearly have no political know-how or aspirations. It basically amounts to them feeling that they’re not being listened to, so shouting louder! They want actual politicians, and the Muslim community, to do the talking – and not only to do the talking, but to be ‘seen’ to be doing the talking. That’s the impression I get anyway, and I’ve been watching them for quite a while now.

  27. We, you are talking poppycock, I along with a few others have been banned from EDL because we are hard line anti-islamists, and where opposed to EDL reaching out to the mythical toothfairies (moderate moslem), You share the same problem as EDL, and that is a total lack of understanding the threat islam poses to western democracy.

  28. @ we….Fortuyn was an incredible bastard when it came to Islam, yet the Muslims never touched him. Will his treatment at the hand of Muslims be shown as Muslims accepting criticism and not acting out?

    You seem to forget the leftist/islamist link

    Fortuyn was assassinated during the 2002 Dutch national election campaign by Volkert van der Graaf, who claimed in court he had murdered Fortuyn to stop him from exploiting Muslims as “scapegoats” and targeting “the weak parts of society to score points” in seeking political power.

    Do a little research about the dutch ALF and the Algerian Resistance and the Muslim Brotherhood then you will see the Islamic Terrorists are not so far removed from homegrown Animal Rights Terrorists.

  29. “But the problem with groups like EDL that they cannot distinguish between extremists and Muslims”

    As Shiva has commented above, the EDL has constantly extended a welcome to those Muslims who stand against Islamic extremism and clearly state in their forum policy that their aim is to oppose MILITANT Islam. Unfortunately, the moderate Muslims have not been forthcoming.

    “They want to stop extremism and radicalisation. ”

    Again, ISLAMIC extremism is the EDL’s specific agenda and at no time has it been claimed that they intend to tackle the task of opposing ALL forms of extremism. There are any number of groups out there who can, and do rally for the other causes.

    “Fortuyn was an incredible bastard when it came to Islam, yet the Muslims never touched him”

    No… because some other maniac got to him first!

  30. @James McGrath:

    “The number of real neo-Nazis in the UK is tiny. I mean absolutely microscopic – and far less than the number of Islamists of Choudary’s ilk.”

    Prove it. The UK has Blood and Honour, British National Party, British People’s Party, Combat 18, International Third Position, League of Saint George, National Front, National Socialist Movement, November 9th Society and Racial Volunteer Force. All of these chare Nazi idealogy in one way or the other and have considerable members.

    “The simplest one is that they could never hope to arrange demonstrations as the EDL does; there simply isn’t enough of them, so they think they can hide in the EDL’s ranks, as long as they keep their arms down. ”

    Present them with an opportunity to march and chant against an ethnic minority and Nazis will flock. It’s as simple as that.

    “most of them wouldn’t touch the EDL with a very long bargepole, simply because they think they’re a ‘Zionist’ organisation!”

    Thats because of the display of Israeli flags and support for Israel in its conflict with the Palestinians. They see that conflict as a conflict between Judeo-Christian values and Islam, and that is why they support Israel.

    “My own concern is that by labelling the EDL as neo-Nazis themselves, you’ll help to turn them into something that they currently are not. If they think that they can’t even voice an opinion without being called ‘Nazis’, then you’re backing them into a corner – and I think they’ll come out fighting even more than they have done so far.”

    They can voice their opinions, they just shouldnt follow into the footsteps of previous parties who signalled out, say, the Jews, or Irish, for attacks and protests. How would you go about criticising Judaism without being an anti-semitic? Apply the same tactics to Islam.

    “As for dialogue with the Muslim community, I don’t think the EDL are the type of organisation that ‘could’ open up dialogue; it’s not in their nature.”

    And that is why they will fail. They will keep intimidating the Muslim community and pushing them away further, the Muslim communities will complain of intimidation and they will be dealt with or teh EDL will be hijacked.

    @shiva:

    “We, you are talking poppycock, I along with a few others have been banned from EDL because we are hard line anti-islamists, and where opposed to EDL reaching out to the mythical toothfairies (moderate moslem), You share the same problem as EDL, and that is a total lack of understanding the threat islam poses to western democracy.”

    And here we have a typical supporter of the EDL. Notice how it’s not Islamic extremism, but simply Islam. Say shiva, are you by any chance from India?

    “You seem to forget the leftist/islamist link

    Fortuyn was assassinated during the 2002 Dutch national election campaign by Volkert van der Graaf, who claimed in court he had murdered Fortuyn to stop him from exploiting Muslims as “scapegoats” and targeting “the weak parts of society to score points” in seeking political power.

    Do a little research about the dutch ALF and the Algerian Resistance and the Muslim Brotherhood then you will see the Islamic Terrorists are not so far removed from homegrown Animal Rights Terrorists.”

    Hehe, I knew it! Whenever someone who is anti-islam gets murdered or assasinated, Islamophobes will do whatever they can to link Muslims to it. The connection shiva here is talking about is the writings by Craig Rosenbraugh on the ELF website where he studied the Algerian Resistance and how the Algerians stood up against the French who had massacred them during the conquest. That connection is then drawn out to make a connection to the Muslim Brotherhood and all kinds of other “Muslim” organisations.

    Ofcourse, this is all delusional talk from people who fail to recognise that it was an assassination by a NON-MUSLIM, without any help from Muslims, who saw Fortuyn as a danger to Dutch society. There werent any Muslims involved, anywhere. Nice try though.

    @pete:

    “As Shiva has commented above, the EDL has constantly extended a welcome to those Muslims who stand against Islamic extremism and clearly state in their forum policy that their aim is to oppose MILITANT Islam. Unfortunately, the moderate Muslims have not been forthcoming. ”

    Until the EDL drops its support for SIOE and people like Geller and Spencer, groups and persons who actively attack Islam and its Prophet viciously and repeatedly, they will not be welcomed by the Muslim community. Ofcourse, there have been a couple of times when mosques have invited the EDL for a dialogue. But the EDL flat out refused. The point is: the EDL is not just against “militant” Islam, it is against Islam as a whole and that is quite clear from what its members think of Islam and the friends it keeps.

    “Again, ISLAMIC extremism is the EDL’s specific agenda and at no time has it been claimed that they intend to tackle the task of opposing ALL forms of extremism. There are any number of groups out there who can, and do rally for the other causes.”

    The war in Iraq IS the current motivation for “Islamic extremism”.

    • We, you’re beginning to sound ridiculous. The ITP, LoSG and Combat 18 are relics of history. They don’t exist anymore and could be counted in dozens when they did. The same for NSM and N9S/BFP. The RVF consists of 30-odd people max. It’s basically a drinking club. Blood and Honour (in the UK) is only interested in arranging gigs so they can sell CD’s and other merchandise. If they got 100 people at a gig they’d be lucky. The NF can’t scrape together 100 people for their biggest event of the year, i.e. a remembrance day march. The BPP is a few BNP rejects who would be lucky to reach double figures. Where are you getting all this rubbish from?

      You’re then left with the BNP. Griffin and the top echelon are, indeed, traditional Nazis in their beliefs. We’ve finally found some common ground! But the people under that, the ordinary supporters and voters aren’t Nazis. Most of them aren’t even racist. They vote for the BNP because, like the EDL, they feel that there is no voice speaking for them. If you take three of the greatest concerns for many people in the country – mass immigration, the EU, and Islamic extremism – none of the big three parties have policies that match those of large sections of society. People thus vote BNP or, increasingly, UKIP. That doesn’t make those people Nazis – it just makes them angry people!

      As for your “Nazis will flock” to the EDL, I’ve clearly explained that: a) there aren’t that many Nazis ‘to’ flock; b) most of the Nazis that exist hate the EDL so wouldn’t “flock” to them anyway. You even acknowledge that yourself with “that’s because of the display of Israeli flags”.

      Now this time there really isn’t any point carrying on the conversation. You said yourself that you don’t attend demonstrations, but here you are on the internet spreading base lies about the ‘Nazi threat’ in the UK – and then connecting the EDL to it. That is incitement, plain and simple. You are winding up other people to confront them on the mistaken belief that they all love Hitler, while you stay safely tucked away behind your keyboard. I find that disgusting. I don’t like the EDL’s tactics, just because they’re clumsy at best. But your tactics are far worse because they are targeted. You know that you are spreading hate and lies. You know that other people will believe what you are saying if they haven’t done any research. Worst of all, you know that if violence occurs because of your propaganda, it won’t be you on the receiving end of it! You’ve made one or two reasonable points in your comments, but you ruin everything by mixing them in the middle of this other drivel!

  31. There are those who continue to believe that because Volkert van der Graaf was not a declared convert to Islam, and was known as an animal-rights activist, his murder of Pim Fortuyn had nothing to do with Islam. They never seem, these people, to ask themselves two questions. First, what did the murder of Pim Fortuyn have to do with animal rights? Was Pim Fortuyn known for having taken any position on the treatment or mistreatment of animals? No, he was not.

    The second question is: why did Volkert van der Graaf, then, murder Pim Fortuyn? What was it about Pim Fortuyn that he, Volkert van der Graaf, told the court was the reason for his murdering him? It is no secret. He made it clear before his trial, and at his trial, and after his trial.

    From the Daily Telegraph of March 28, 2003:

    A Left-wing activist confessed in court yesterday to Holland’s first political assassination in 400 years, claiming that he shot Pim Fortuyn to defend Dutch Muslims from persecution. Volkert van der Graaf, 33, a vegan animal rights campaigner, said he alone was responsible for killing the maverick protest leader last May, days before a general election in which the Fortuyn List party vaulted into second place and shattered Holland’s consensus.
    Facing a raucous court on the first day of his murder trial, he said his goal was to stop Mr Fortuyn exploiting Muslims as ‘scapegoats’ and targeting ‘the weak parts of society to score points” to try to gain political power. He said: “I confess to the shooting. He was an ever growing danger who would affect many people in society. I saw it as a danger. I hoped that I could solve it myself.”

    Possibly van der Graaf arrived at this conclusion on his own. More likely, I think, is that Muslims used him as a weapon, a human guided missile that they could exploit and direct through the power of mental suggestion.

    But it doesn’t matter. It was a killing for Muslims, on behalf of Muslims, for a Muslim cause, by a non-Muslim sympathizer, of a man known for his anti-Muslim views.

  32. No, the war in Iraq IS because of “Islamic extremism”

  33. @Shiva. Do you think perhaps ‘We’ is of the opinion 9/11 was more of a ‘moderate’ Islamic act and the West just got pissy about it and over reacted?

  34. “…said he alone was responsible for killing the maverick protest leader last May, days before a general election in which the Fortuyn List party vaulted into second place and shattered Holland’s consensus.”

    Who benefited from that then? The far right, and not the Muslims. So the point you were trying to make, Shiva, is not valid.

  35. The Muslims benefitted from the permanent silencing of a high profile, outspoken detractor of their ideaology.

  36. “I don’t know about you, but if i change the word “Muslim” for the word “Jew” I seem to have something that resembles Nazi propaganda.”

    Well superficially, We, there does appear to be a resemblance. But when there was Nazi propaganda, it was based on lies. This propaganda is based on a perception that is believed by those who promote it (even if exaggerated and flawed).

    Of course Muslims do not all want to kill us, but some (a small minority admittedly) Muslims are prepared to plot and prepare terrorist attacks, and many Salafist Muslims see there as being a war between Islam and West

    Now that is where your “Nazi” similarities end. When Nazi propaganda was going around, there were NO Jewish terror attacks being carried out against German civilians, were there?

    The rhetoric you quote is facile and primitive, but it does tune in with what some people are genuinely scared of – the rise of fundamentalist Islam.

    Which is why I object to people making facile declarations of “Nazism” without following through on the analogy in a reductio ad absurdam.

    By calling things that are reactionary “Nazi”, one devalues the term.

    Let us simply agree that the EDL are a reactionay group. They are reacting to a perceived threat. They use reactionary language. But that does not make them de facto Nazis, and I think this is what is clouding the issue.

    The Nazis were racists – and yet the UAF who claim the EDL are “Nazi racists” are themselves racists. The leadership of the UAF has to be non-white, one of the reasons why Searchlight parted company with the UAF a few years ago. Searchlight also declared that they were fed up with whispering campaigns from the UAF that called them “Zionists”.

    Therefore, on that issue (antisemitism) if you want to make bland analogies, there is a far more cogent argument to suggest that the UAF are more “Nazi” than the EDL.

    To throw around simplistic and meaningless terms is never to get to the root of truth, only to engage in one’s own forms of propaganda.

    Yes, the EDL does engage in rather lame propaganda, but let us not demean ourselves by also engaging in the empty rhetoric of propaganda.

  37. How did Muslims benefit from someone being dead and becoming more popular? Can you explain that a bit better?

  38. @Tom, Quite simply, a dead man is not going to continue to campaign against Muslims and his execution sends out a very clear message to anyone who wishes to pick up where he left off!

  39. @James McGrath:

    “The ITP, LoSG and Combat 18 are relics of history. They don’t exist anymore and could be counted in dozens when they did. The same for NSM and N9S/BFP. The RVF consists of 30-odd people max. It’s basically a drinking club. Blood and Honour (in the UK) is only interested in arranging gigs so they can sell CD’s and other merchandise. If they got 100 people at a gig they’d be lucky. The NF can’t scrape together 100 people for their biggest event of the year, i.e. a remembrance day march. The BPP is a few BNP rejects who would be lucky to reach double figures.”

    There are still people who support all these groups. Most have gone underground. Some show up here and there every now and then when they commit hate crimes. The reason I named all these groups is you said there are more Muslim terrorists in the UK than there are non-Muslim terrorists. Put all the numbers these groups have together and then prove that the Muslim terrorists are a higher number.

    “You’re then left with the BNP. Griffin and the top echelon are, indeed, traditional Nazis in their beliefs. We’ve finally found some common ground! But the people under that, the ordinary supporters and voters aren’t Nazis. Most of them aren’t even racist. They vote for the BNP because, like the EDL, they feel that there is no voice speaking for them.”

    And that is what I said before. I’m sure there are some members that aren’t genuinely racist. But a large numberof BNP members are racist and misogynistic. I have been going to tbe BNP website for the past couple of years, reading the articles and the comments left. I suggest you do the same and then you will see the pure hate and racism.

    “If you take three of the greatest concerns for many people in the country – mass immigration, the EU, and Islamic extremism – none of the big three parties have policies that match those of large sections of society. People thus vote BNP or, increasingly, UKIP. That doesn’t make those people Nazis – it just makes them angry people!”

    Sorry, but if you vote for a party with leaders that espouse Nazi ideology and marginalize ethnic minorities the way the Nazis did, I will call you Nazi or racist or whichever trait is most visible. Lots of Germans were fed up with the intrigue of the Weimar Republic and the total inability of the government to govern, coupled with the economic difficulties. They voted for the Nazis because they promised them work and a revival of Germany. Not all of them were racists, but does that take away from the party itself being racist, anti-semitic and whatever else? No.

    “As for your “Nazis will flock” to the EDL, I’ve clearly explained that: a) there aren’t that many Nazis ‘to’ flock; b) most of the Nazis that exist hate the EDL so wouldn’t “flock” to them anyway. You even acknowledge that yourself with “that’s because of the display of Israeli flags”.”

    As I said: give it time. If I recall correctly, members of the EDL have been complaining about Nazis in their ranks growing. There is a reason for that. And the EDL needs to step up and face it. When your allies are groups that portray the Muslims or other minorities the way the Jews were portrayed, and in a lot of areas still are, you will attract a certain crowd. Choudry attracts the scum of the Muslim community. WBC attracts the scum of Christians in the US. Sooner or later the EDL will be hijacked with Nazi scum.

    “Now this time there really isn’t any point carrying on the conversation. You said yourself that you don’t attend demonstrations, but here you are on the internet spreading base lies about the ‘Nazi threat’ in the UK – and then connecting the EDL to it.”

    I’m merely responding the way anti-Islamics do whenever Muslims do what the EDL does. If Muslim forums or groups portrayed the Jews as killers, liars, cheaters, fraudsters and paeodphiles, would you not call them anti-semitic, borrowing from Nazi lies? You would. As would I. If the EDL says the same thing but changes the group thats the target, I will not change my conclusion, whereas it seems you would.

    “ That is incitement, plain and simple. You are winding up other people to confront them on the mistaken belief that they all love Hitler, while you stay safely tucked away behind your keyboard. I find that disgusting.”

    I have repeatedly called for the EDL to drop its support for groups that intimidate and distance themselves from Muslims by attacking Islam and its Prophet. I have not called on anyone to fight them. If anything, I want the EDL to avoid violence and proceed on a path which is going to make the Muslim community accept the EDL and what it stands for.

    “I don’t like the EDL’s tactics, just because they’re clumsy at best. But your tactics are far worse because they are targeted. You know that you are spreading hate and lies.”

    Can you list what the various EDL forums say about Muslims and Pakistanis? If you could list that, I would show you why I say what I say about the EDL. You know I would do that? I would compare and contrast it with what I can find at:

    calvin . edu /academic/cas/gpa

    “You know that other people will believe what you are saying if they haven’t done any research. Worst of all, you know that if violence occurs because of your propaganda, it won’t be you on the receiving end of it! You’ve made one or two reasonable points in your comments, but you ruin everything by mixing them in the middle of this other drivel!”

    They don’t have to look far. Richard has some posts with videos on the EDL. Newspapers have reports on the EDL. I’m not the leader of an organization. I am not allied with any Muslim or non-Muslim group that organises protests. But, if you are saying this about me if I just post here, are you willing to say the same about Spencer and co?

    @shiva:

    “There are those who continue to believe that because Volkert van der Graaf was not a declared convert to Islam, and was known as an animal-rights activist, his murder of Pim Fortuyn had nothing to do with Islam… But it doesn’t matter. It was a killing for Muslims, on behalf of Muslims, for a Muslim cause, by a non-Muslim sympathizer, of a man known for his anti-Muslim views.”

    Now I know who you are! Welcome back Hugh! Why the change of name? I thought June fit you just fine, dude. And I see you copied and pasted your post from Jihad Watch. Figures…

    Anyway, on to the point. May I present another way of marginalizing and attacking the Muslim community for something which is not their fault, I mean, at all. Here we have a born and bred non-Muslim who shoots a politician he sees as a danger to society and people like Hugh (Anyone surprised he is a regular poster at Jihad Watch?) putting the blame squarely on the Muslims. Kind of like blaming Jews for something, isnt it Hugh? Well Hugh, where is the proof? There is no proof that any Muslim was involved with the shooting of Fortuyn! If there was, it would have been headline news considering who the guy was!

    Your argument is if someone killed David Duke with the same reasoning van der Graaf gave, you would go ahead and blame the blacks and Jews, and not Duke or the assassin! That is how much an idiot you are with your argument. Proof. Provide proof of a Muslim killing Fortuyn. If you cant, then accept and acknowledge that a non-Muslim killed someone who was acting like a racist by scapegoating the Muslims, but not just the Muslims, also the “weaker in society”. That includes all other weak minorities, from blacks to Jews. Volkert was working under the Niemoller quote which anti-Islamics like to throw around, heavily edited and full with innuendo ofcourse. You know, the “First they came for…” quote. He wasn’t a product of Muslim thinking or Muslim actions or Muslim ideology. He was a product of the same society that produced Fortuyn and Muslims had nothing to do with it.

    “No, the war in Iraq IS because of “Islamic extremism””

    I might be wrong, but I don’t remember Saddam or Iraqis being responsible for the attacks on 9/11. I may be wrong but I remember the US military acknowledging that after years of researching Iraqi documents, they could not find connections to Al Qaeda. No, the war in Iraq was an illegal war, an attack on a country that had not attacked us or the US on 9/11. And that is why extremists grew. Because people joined whoever was fighting for the Iraqis against this illegal war.

    @pete:

    “@Shiva. Do you think perhaps ‘We’ is of the opinion 9/11 was more of a ‘moderate’ Islamic act and the West just got pissy about it and over reacted?”

    You have proof that Iraq attacked us on 9/11? I don’t think so. Unfortunately, you don’t care that more than a million people are dead, with more millions displaced. You might not care, but other people got pretty pissed off at that war. You know, just like we and the Americans were pretty pissed off at the terrorists on 9/11. We never stop and apply our mindset after 9/11 to the people of Iraq after their country was illegally attacked, invaded and occupied. Which is ad really because apparently the human brain is made so that we can empathise with people, put ourselves into their shoes.

    “The Muslims benefitted from the permanent silencing of a high profile, outspoken detractor of their ideaology.”

    Ah yes, the Muslims are to blame for the killing of Fortuyn! And damn all the evidence to the contrary! The Muslims didn’t benefit from Fortuyn. His death ensured LPF got significant power and gave us people like Hirsi Ali and van Gogh’s crusade.

    @Adrian Morgan:

    “Well superficially, We, there does appear to be a resemblance. But when there was Nazi propaganda, it was based on lies. This propaganda is based on a perception that is believed by those who promote it (even if exaggerated and flawed).”

    Haha! This is priceless! “Nazi propaganda against Jews was not true. But this propaganda, which is basically the same, IS TRUE!” That’s some brilliant reasoning man, thumbs up.

    The Nazis spread those lies and the people believed them. Spencer and SIOE and others spread lies about Muslims and Islam in the hope people believe them. And strangely enough, those lies and propaganda ARE the same as the Nazi propaganda you can find at the link I gave to James.

    “Of course Muslims do not all want to kill us, but some (a small minority admittedly) Muslims are prepared to plot and prepare terrorist attacks, and many Salafist Muslims see there as being a war between Islam and West”

    Christians brought us the Iraq war, with over a million dead. Evangelists in the US support killing off the Palestinians so that Israel can expand into “Greater Israel” and Jesus will descend from the heavens. Spencer and co see there as being a war between the Islam and West. Same shit, different mouths.

    “Now that is where your “Nazi” similarities end. When Nazi propaganda was going around, there were NO Jewish terror attacks being carried out against German civilians, were there?”

    So ehh, we are to believe what Nazis and racists like David Duke and the KKK say about black people being violent and wanting to attack and take over from white people simply because there are proportionally more black people in jail in the USA or the perpetrators of crime? No. Are we to blame the Jews for the Kristallnacht because of Herschel Grynszpan? Are we to blame the Jews for what the Nazis said about them because of a couple of Jewish bankers? Hell no. Sorry man, thats not how sane people work towards community cohesion and harmony.

    “By calling things that are reactionary “Nazi”, one devalues the term.”

    So will people like you stop calling terrorists Muslim terrorists any time soon? Or extremists Muslim extremists? No? Thought so.

    “The Nazis were racists – and yet the UAF who claim the EDL are “Nazi racists” are themselves racists. The leadership of the UAF has to be non-white, one of the reasons why Searchlight parted company with the UAF a few years ago. Searchlight also declared that they were fed up with whispering campaigns from the UAF that called them “Zionists”.”

    I’m not saying the UAf are spotless. I merely pointed towards the pictures and videos and records they had of the EDL marches.

    “Therefore, on that issue (antisemitism) if you want to make bland analogies, there is a far more cogent argument to suggest that the UAF are more “Nazi” than the EDL.”

    Then by all means make it. Prove that the UAF says that Jews or Muslims are killers, liars, cheaters and fraudsters bent on taking over the world and its banks.

    “To throw around simplistic and meaningless terms is never to get to the root of truth, only to engage in one’s own forms of propaganda.”

    I have a grandmother who is a racist in every sense of the word. I let her know what she is and I make sure I don’t see her again and am never in her company again. To call someone what they are based on their writings and sayings and friends is not to devalue the term or being simplistic or meaningless, it is to show that other person where they are going wrong and make sure they do not go beyond the point of no return.

    “Yes, the EDL does engage in rather lame propaganda, but let us not demean ourselves by also engaging in the empty rhetoric of propaganda.”

    If a Muslim group spread the same Nazi propaganda about Jews, they would be called Nazis as well, by me and a lot of other people. Why should it be any different when the propaganda is now about Muslims?

    @pete;

    “@Tom, Quite simply, a dead man is not going to continue to campaign against Muslims and his execution sends out a very clear message to anyone who wishes to pick up where he left off!”

    Yep, that message being: Muslims won’t kill you and will have nothing to do with your death but it’s ok, your hate will live and we will still blame the Muzzies for your assassination instead of the actual person that killed you.

  40. A couple of points here, one law for all is against all religiouse courts, if you bothered to listen.

    Shiva was banned from EDL because she believes all muslims are extremist and we don’t.

    Arthur.

  41. Well, We – apparently you have a habit of seeing only what you want to see, and I think you should spend less energy reacting and assuming what people write, and invest more energy taking in what they say, without adding your own “spin”.

    You seem to view things in terms of polarisation and a dualism between good/bad, Nazi/non-Nazi etc . Certainly you appear to want to turn rational discussion into a manic pissing contest. But enjoy your conclusions and congratulate yourself on your brilliant mind…. I think you are the only one who will, after reading your last bout of hyperbole.

    • I’m sorry you view it that way. I am just tired of the anti-Islamic rhetoric I find online on sites like Jihad Watch, which is then copied by SIOE, which in turn is supported by the EDL. I have been planning on setting up a blog to compare and contrast the propaganda the Nazis spread about the Jews and other undesirables to the current propaganda spread about Muslims.

      Like I said: you might be a genuinely not racist or fascist member of the EDL. I admit, there are people like that. But the organization, together with the other organizations it supports, paints to me a picture that would take away religious freedom from Muslims based on prejudice, misunderstanding and misinformation. I have Muslim friends. I live near what is dubbed the biggest mosque in Western Europe whose halls double as a community centre where fire drills are held, police have their classes and people get married. I will not just let hate spread by Spencer and co allow people to think that that mosque is a breeding ground for terrorists. Or that my friends dont deserve to choose whether to wear a veil or not or have children or not or make use of our laws that allow them to practise their religion freely because that might be considered stealth jihad.

  42. the wars in iraq and afghanistan are not responsible for the renewed anti islamic scentiment, However they are responsible for the mass migration of asylum seekers who have placed unquestionable limits to the ability of the british people to sustain a sustainable level of population growth ,have stripped communities of their identities and continuosly complain they are being treated unequaly and are using religion and religious discrimination to their advantage regarding planning issues,community grants ,eduction etc

    • Unfortunately, after we invaded Iraq illegally, after we carried out saturation bombings ofcourse, after we destroyed and let be destroyed their libraries and museums which housed some of the oldest relics and literature in the world, after we killedn 1000s, hired terrorists from blackwater to continue terrorising Iraqis, we were bound to stir up some kind of resentment. That is how war goes. The result unfortunately was 7/7. In the long term, the result was increased immigration from teh countries we were bombing leading to more resentment and disillusion with immigration policies here in the UK. And after all this that *beep* Blair gets to play Middle East peace envoy…

  43. the wars in iraq and afghanistan are not responsible for the renewed anti islamic scentiment, However they are responsible for the mass migration of asylum seekers who have placed unquestionable limits to the ability of the british people to sustain a sustainable level of population growth ,have stripped communities of their identities

  44. @ Arthur. Shiva was banned from EDL because she believes all muslims are extremist and we don’t.

    There is no idea insulting me here. I am a he, not a she, as explain many times on EDL,s forum

  45. Well, We, Volkert van der Graaf murdered of Pim Fortuyn on behalf of the moslem, so matter how much you want to spin, islam played a role.

    You fail to mention all the other critics of islam that have been murder, since Mohammed ordered the murder of several poets including Asma bint Marwan, a poet and mother of five

    We, you accuse Robert Spencer of spreading lies about islam, yet you give no exmple.

    So prove to us where RS is a liar

    You are a shameless smear merchant

    You try to smear the west for all the deaths in Iraq, when in fact the the deaths belong to a much older war, namely the Shiite/Sunni war due to the schism that occurred when the Islamic prophet Muhammad died in the year 632(AD), leading to a dispute over succession to Muhammad as a caliph of the Islamic community spread across various parts of the world.

    No moslems are not nazis, they follow the koran and hadithes which out rivals Mien kampf in it,s hatred for Jews

    “Adolf Hitler used what is now called the Armenian holocaust as his model for an even greater holocaust. Ottoman Turks developed techniques later used by the Nazis, such as piling 90 people into a train car with a capacity of 36, and leaving them locked in for days, terrified, starving, and often dead.

    “Hitler was even more impressed with how the Turks got away with genocide. When Hitler on Aug. 22, 1939, explained that his plans to invade Poland included the formation of death squads that would exterminate men, women, and children, he asked, ‘Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?’

    “In recent years some have. Books such as Peter Balakian’s The Burning Tigris (HarperCollins, 2003) tell of the Armenian tragedy in a way that also helps us to understand radical Islam. That’s because the key incitement to massacre came on Nov. 14, 1914, when Mustafa Hayri Bey, the Ottoman Empire’s leading Sunni authority, urged his followers to commence a jihad: One pamphlet declared, ‘He who kills even one unbeliever…shall be rewarded by Allah.’

    “The jihad proclamation received wide dissemination. When a priest asked a Muslim army officer how he could participate in killing several thousand Armenian women, Captain Shukri’s answer was simple: It was jihad time, and after the murders he could ‘spread out my prayer rug and pray, giving glory to Allah and the Prophet who made me worthy of personally participating in the holy jihad in these days of my old age.’

    “The Ottoman Turk government set up and paid special killing squads. The Ministry of the Interior gave instructions to ‘exterminate all males under 50, priests and teacher, leave girls and children to be Islamized.’ Historians and journalists have estimated that Turks killed 800,000 to 1 million Armenians in 1915 alone, and an additional 200,000 to 500,000 over the next seven years.

  46. So the EDL are accused of being nazi,s, maybe it would be enlightening to have a look at some of the accusers, and where better to start than with some of the folks who organized against EDL in Edinburgh.

    Osama Saeed and Aamer Anwa, both deeply involved with Stop the War Coalition, headed by George Galloway. who was very cosy with Arafat and family

    Arafats uncle was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. He was personally acquianted with Hitler and had visited Hitler in Germany.”
    Yes he was. Here is an article on that. And here’s a excerpt:

    The Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini was later the notorious Nazi who mixed Nazi propaganda and Islam. He was wanted for war crimes in Bosnia by Yugoslavia. His mix of militant propagandizing Islam was an inspriation for both Yasser Arafat and Saddam Husein:

    He was also a close relative of Yasser Arafat and grandfather of the current Temple Mount Mufti. “Arafat’s actual name was Abd al-Rahman abd al-Bauf Arafat al-Qud al-Husseini. He shortened it to obscure his kinship with the notorious Nazi and ex-Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini.”

    The Bet Agron International Center in Jerusalem interviewed Arafat’s brother and sister, who described the Mufti as a cousin (family member) with tremendous influence on young Yassir after the Mufti returned from Berlin to Cairo.

    Yasser Arafat himself kept his exact lineage and birthplace secret. Saddam Hussein was raised in the house of his uncle Khayrallah Tulfah, who was a leader in the Mufti’s pro-Nazi coup in Iraq in May 1941.

    The only important difference between Nazi-ism, Fascism, Communism,
    Socialism and Liberalism is the spelling, and that the last group hasn’t
    got the brains to figure it out.
    – Bill Vance

    I would add Islam to the above quote.

  47. Sorry Shiva, late night and tired. No insult intended.

    Arthur.

  48. Arthur

    No problem.

    Shiva

  49. @we.. just about sums it up ,well put but you fail to mention Blair being cohersed into removing Sadham who Tories have recently revealed was a puppet of Thatcher who ruled his country with an iron fist and ensured neighbouring countries were more bothered about his actions than the West . Saudi Arabia having persuaded the Blair to amend the humanrights act to accomodate ranting mullahs on our shores and sylum seekers they knew would be unable to return are the ones jihadis need to recognise as the villains, now Iraq and Afghanistan will never be truely free of tribal fueds and peace in the region is just a distant dream, Great if you happen to be an islamic fundermental asylum seeker.

  50. @shiva:

    “Well, We, Volkert van der Graaf murdered of Pim Fortuyn on behalf of the moslem, so matter how much you want to spin, islam played a role.”

    Muslims and or Islam were not guilty of the murder of Fortuyn. Volkert said he did what he did because Forturyn was using the Muslims the same way Hitler was using the Jews: as scapegoats for whatever is wrong in society. Moreover, he said he did also did it for the other “weak in society”. Who are those? He has already named the Muslims, are you going to blame all those others as well?

    This kind of thinking is typical of the followers of Spencer and the bile he and his ilk spew. You have swallowed the modern day Nazi propaganda. Just like Jews were blamed for everything, from the depression to communism and murders back then by the Nazis, you will blame everything on Islam and Muslims. Let me quote a piece of Nazi propaganda which is similar to you are saying:

    “When someone does get good products more cheaply from the Jews than from Germans, it is only because the united Jewish firms force down prices from the manufacturers, which means reducing workers’ wages. He who has bought good products cheaply from the Jew should never forget that the curse of a German worker and the tears of his hungry children come with them!”

    Yes, that is actual propaganda from the Nazis. They blame Jews for low prices and when someone says low prices are good, they then blame the Jews for workers going hungry! Jews could never win in Nazi propaganda, just like Muslims can never win in your mind because of the modern day Nazi propaganda you have swallowed. That propaganda then forces you to do mental gymnastics to justify your hatred for Muslims by linking them to every negative thing you can think off, even if they weren’t responsible for it, let alone anywhere near it!

    As for your questions about who profited? Muslims did not profit from Fortuyns death. The LPF gained significant power and his legacy produced people like Hirsi Ali and van Gogh. If anything, Muslims suffered the most because of his death.

    Unless you have actual proof that a Muslim groomed Volkert, provided him with the gun, told him where to go and told him to kill Fortuyn, you have to acknowledge that Muslims and Islam are not guilty of the murder of Fortuyn. Or do you think that all white Christians were also responsible for the murder of MLK? Or for the murder of 100s of other people? Would you blame the Jews or blacks if someone who wasn’t black or Jewish shot David Duke because of his racism and anti-semitism? Next thing we know, you will blame the underage Morroccan youths he had sex with for breaking the law instead blaming Fortuyn…

    “You fail to mention all the other critics of islam that have been murder, since Mohammed ordered the murder of several poets including Asma bint Marwan, a poet and mother of five!”

    IIRC Asma encouraged non-Muslims to kill Muslims and especially Muhammad. I may be wrong but encouraging people to kill leaders was seen as treason, still is.

    “We, you accuse Robert Spencer of spreading lies about islam, yet you give no exmple.
    So prove to us where RS is a liar
    You are a shameless smear merchant”

    Didn’t Spencer scrub that mass Gaza wedding news off his site so no one could see what he said? And then ofcourse there is him blaming everything bad that happens in Muslim countries on Islam. Whenever a Muslim commits a crime, it;s because of Islam. Just like Nazis think that whenever something bad happens in the world, it’s the fault of the Jews. If you don’t believe me about Spencer and regurgitation of Nazi propaganda, here is another quote:

    “Actually, the Jewish religion is nothing other than a doctrine to preserve the Jewish race.”

    (Adolf Hitler).

    “In resisting all government attempts to nationalize them, the Jews build a state within the state”

    (Count Helmuth von Moltke).

    “To call this state a ‘religion’ was one of the cleverest tricks ever invented.”

    (Adolf Hitler)

    Gee, I wonder where before I have seen Islam called not a religion but a doctrine bent on world conquest and that Muslims create a state within a state… Maybe you know where we have seen that before?

    “You try to smear the west for all the deaths in Iraq, when in fact the the deaths belong to a much older war, namely the Shiite/Sunni war due to the schism that occurred…”

    Fact is that before we went into that illegal war, before we bombed and killed them, destroyed their infrastructure, had no plans for keeping the peace and rebuilding, stole from their libraries and museums and fomented sectarian tension by siding with certain groups and not others, Iraq had not seen such violence. We are directly responsible for that violence. But you don’t care. Once again, you have a situation where Christians and other non-Muslims are to blame for the illegal invasion and occupation of a country and you want to blame the Muslims for the consequences of war. Typical.

    “No moslems are not nazis, they follow the koran and hadithes which out rivals Mien kampf in it,s hatred for Jews”

    Hitler in his own words:

    “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.”

    -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

    “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

    “Just as the Jew could once incite the mob of Jerusalem against Christ, so today he must succeed in inciting folk who have been duped into madness to attack those who, God’s truth! seek to deal with this people in utter honesty and sincerity.”

    -Adolf Hitler, in Munich, 28 July 1922

    “We are determined, as leaders of the nation, to fulfill as a national government the task which has been given to us, swearing fidelity only to God, our conscience, and our Volk…. This the national government will regard its first and foremost duty to restore the unity of spirit and purpose of our Volk. It will preserve and defend the foundations upon which the power of our nation rests. It will take Christianity, as the basis of our collective morality, and the family as the nucleus of our Volk and state, under its firm protection….May God Almighty take our work into his grace, give true form to our will, bless our insight, and endow us with the trust of our Volk.”

    -Adolf Hitler, on 1 Feb. 1933, addressing the German nation as Chancellor for the first time, Volkischer Beobachter, 5 Aug. 1935, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall’s The Holy Reich]

    “The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were”…. I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.”

    -Adolf Hitler, 26 April 1933, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall’s The Holy Reich]

    “Their sword will become our plow, and from the tears of war the daily bread of future generations will grow.”

    -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
    Note: “Their sword will become our plow” appears to paraphrase Micah 4:3 about beating swords into ploughshares, but his tears of war more resembles Joel 3:9-10 “Beat your plowshares into swords.”

    “Sooner will a camel pass through a needle’s eye than a great man be ‘discovered’ by an election.”

    -Adolf Hitler with his twist on Mark 10:25 (Mein Kampf)

    “Verily a man cannot serve two masters. And I consider the foundation or destruction of a religion far greater than the foundation or destruction of a state, let alone a party.”

    -Adolf Hitler speaking like Jesus in Matthew 6:24 (Mein Kampf)

    “But the people on top made a cult of the ‘ally,’ as if it were the Golden Calf.”

    -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
    (The Golden calf occurs in Exodus 32:1-4)

    Etc. Etc. Etc. There are literally 100s of quotes from Hitler where he says he was inspired by Jesus and the Bible and Church. Moreover, there are quotes from him where he even admires Buddhism. Are you going to blame all Christians and Buddhists and Germans for Hitler? Thought so. Then why do you insist on blaming all Muslims and Islam for what he did? Let’s see the actual quote you are talking regarding the Armenian Genocide:

    “[August 22, 1939]

    My decision to attack Poland was arrived at last spring. Originally, I feared that the political constellation would compel me to strike simultaneously at England, Russia, France, and Poland. Even this risk would have had to be taken.

    Ever since the autumn of 1938, and because I realized that Japan would not join us unconditionally and that Mussolini is threatened by that nit-wit of a king and the treasonable scoundrel of a crown prince, I decided to go with Stalin.
    In the last analysis, there are only three great statesmen in the world, Stalin, I, and Mussolini. Mussolini is the weakest, for he has been unable to break the power of either the crown or the church. Stalin and I are the only ones who envisage the future and nothing but the future. Accordingly, I shall in a few weeks stretch out my hand to Stalin at the common German-Russian frontier and undertake the redistribution of the world with him.

    Our strength consists in our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter — with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state. It’s a matter of indifference to me what a weak western European civilization will say about me.

    I have issued the command — and I’ll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad — that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formations in readiness — for the present only in the East — with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?”

    Quite interesting, after speaking about the Mongols as well. But then, you aren’t going to blame the Mongols for Hitler, but you are perfectly fine with blaming the Muslims. Here we have 1 line, at the end of the statement when Hitler is talking about who will remember the people I killed. He picked the most recent genocide because people had already forgotten. It’s as simple as that. He wasn’t inspired by it to commit the Holocaust, no, the only thing he used it to justify was war, how no one will remember the ones that he killed.

    “So the EDL are accused of being nazi,s, maybe it would be enlightening to have a look at some of the accusers, and where better to start than with some of the folks who organized against EDL in Edinburgh.”

    Ofcourse, the Mufti of Jerusalem talked with the Nazis and helped them in some ways in return for their backing for an independent state after the French and English had betrayed the Arabs and instead of keeping their promise of giving the Arabs autonomy, split the area and took over. Just like the Mufti tried to gain Hitlers backing for an independent Palestinian state, so did the Jewish Stern Gang try to gain Hitlers backing for an Independent Jewish State. And ofcourse, we shouldn’t forget the 1000s of Christian holy men and women who worked with the Nazis.

    But ofcourse, you wont acknowledge that. All you will see, as you have been conditioned to see, is Muslims working with Nazis.

    • We – just for some balance:

      “You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion…The Mohammedan religion too would have been more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?”

      Adolf Hitler – August 28, 1942

      “Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers -already, you see, the world had already fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing Christianity! -then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism (Islam), that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so.”

      Adolf Hitler – August 28, 1942

      Plus plenty of pictures of modern day Nazi-loving Muslims:

      http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Images:Islamic_Nazism

      The far-left, the far-right and the Islamists share a hatred of Jews, although they all seem to prefer the term ‘anti-Zionist’ these days!

      • “We – just for some balance:”

        Ofcourse. He also has quotes about Buddhism, pagan beliefs and some about Darwin. Are all those things to blame? No. That is my point.

        “Plus plenty of pictures of modern day Nazi-loving Muslims”

        yes, just like there are modern day Christian Nazis, there ae modern day Muslim Nazis, and there was even a group in Israel recently arrested taht adhered to Nazism. But taking your cue from websites like wikiislam.com is not something that is advised. It talks about Muslims and spreads lies about them just as the Nazis did about the Jews and gypsies, from paedophilia and necrophilia to world conquest, stealth jihad and lying. Looking at the pictures on the page, most of them are about the mufti that worked with Hitler. For balance would you show us the pictures of Hitler meeting with Christian leaders? No. Theres no need. But it shows that Hitler, before the war broke out, met with almost all religious and policitical leaders.

        Other pictures are from the Indian subcontinent. I dont have tell you that the swastika symbol is prevalant in Buddhism and in and around India and does not stand for Nazism as we know it. Then remain most of the pictures from the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Are you sure you want me to explain the situation between the Isarelis and Palestinians? One side calls the otehr Amalek, a people that need to be completely destroyed by order of God, and actually attacks them and keeps them in virtual prisons, the other refuses to go down and keeps agitating the other with salutes and various other things that are meant to show resistance and resentment.

        “The far-left, the far-right and the Islamists share a hatred of Jews, although they all seem to prefer the term ‘anti-Zionist’ these days!”

        Notice how you didnt call the far-left Christians/Jews or the far right Christians but you did name Islam in there specifically. Ya, there are people who hate the Jews and spread lies and misinformation about them, just as there are people that hate the Muslims and spread lies and misinformation about them.

        And finally, there is a difference between Zionism and Judaism. Being against Zionism is not being against Jws or Judaism. This is acknowledged by those Jews who are themselves anti-Zionists. But unfortunately, any debate about Israel results in the side that is critical of Israel and it;s policy being called anti0Jew, or anti-Semitic. And that is just not true.

  51. We have gone really off topic. Back on topic. The EDL has a chance, but it needs to stop allying itself with groups that present Muslims and Islam as the root of all evil. Otherwise it’s efforts will be without any end product, they will collapse and everyone will have forgotten about them. There may be members of the EDL who are genuinely not racist, but the way some EDL members carry themselves and the way they EDL allies itself with groups like SIOE and others, Muslims will put you in the “unfriendly, may be dangerous, avoid bracket” and the authorities will come down on you for singing about Hitler and Pakis. Thats just the way it is.

    • Reading back, that’s a far more balanced approach to the EDL from you We. It will work much better than your opening gambit which entailed calling them “a bunch of nazis and racists.” It’s a shame you ruined it at the end by talking of singing about Hitler, which I very much doubt has happened; that sounds like a UAF/SWP type claim and, although you’ve quoted that group above, I think you’re intelligent enough to recognise and not repeat propaganda.

      Cool heads are needed to deal with groups like the EDL, not name calling. Dialogue is key, but that involves maturity, sensitivity and understanding. The present government has made life difficult for both the Muslim and the White working-class communities – and we are sadly seeing the results of that on both sides.

  52. We @ Muslims will put you in the “unfriendly, may be dangerous, avoid bracket”

    Poppycock

    The Qur’an very emphatically demands that Muslims do NOT befriend non-Muslims. However, in some cases Allah permits his followers to lie and use deception against unbelievers who may think that Muslims are their friends.

    Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying. S. 3:28 Pickthall

    Allah is basically telling Muslims that they can pretend to be friends to unbelievers in order to receive their protection, or to protect themselves from them! Here are Ibn Kathir’s comments on this verse:

    The Prohibition of Supporting the Disbelievers

    Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said,…

    meaning, whoever commits this act that Allah has prohibited, then Allah will discard him. Similarly, Allah said,…

    , until,…

    [60:1]. Allah said,…

    [4:144], and,…

    [5:51].

    Allah said, after mentioning the fact that the faithful believers gave their support to the faithful believers among the Muhajirin, Ansar and Bedouins,…

    [8:73].

    Allah said next, …

    (unless you indeed fear a danger from them) meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers OUTWARDLY, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda’ said, “We smile in the face of some people ALTHOUGH OUR HEARTS CURSE THEM.” Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, “The TUQYAH is allowed until the Day of Resurrection…

    http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=3&tid=8052

    For the meaning of Tuqyah, or taqiyya,

    Sunni Muslims and taqiyya

    However, although taqiyya is usually seen as a Shia doctrine only, it is practiced and taught also by Sunni Muslims, cf. the discussion of friendship with unbelievers in the entry on FRIENDS. Here just one quotation from a Sunni website, Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com), advising in regard to making friends with non-Muslims:

    “Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Awliyaa’ (supporters, helpers) instead of the believers, and whoever does that, will never be helped by Allaah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:28]

    This verse explains all the verses quoted above which forbid taking the kaafirs as friends in general terms. What that refers to is in cases where one has a choice, but in cases of fear and TAQIYYAH it is permissible to make friends with them, as much as is essential to protect oneself against their evil. That is subject to the condition that one’s faith should not be affected by that friendship and the one who is behaves in that manner out of necessity is not one who behaves in that manner out of choice.

    Shaykh Muhammad al-Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about the ruling on mixing with the kuffaar and treating them kindly hoping that they will become Muslim. He replied:

    Undoubtedly the Muslim is obliged to HATE the enemies of Allaah and to disavow them, because this is the way of the Messengers and their followers…

    Based on this, it is not permissible for a Muslim to feel any love in his heart towards the enemies of Allaah who are in fact his enemies too…

    But if a Muslim treats them with KINDNESS and gentleness in the hope that they will become Muslim and will believe, there is nothing wrong with that, because it comes under the heading of opening their hearts to Islam. But if he despairs of them becoming Muslim, then he should treat them accordingly.

    http://islamqa.com/en/ref/59879

    So based on the islams own scrpitures,, muslims will remain unfriendly, and regard EDL as dangerous regardless

    And Allaah knows best

  53. We has accused Robert Spencer of being a nazi and a liar, if that was the case then why hasn,t “We” supplied any linx

    The only evidence he mentions is a dubious video concerning a mass marriage in Gaza. Spencer removed the video because it could not be confirmed the small girls where brides or bridemaids, the removal of the video is a strong testimony to Robert Spencers honesty, which is in sharp contrast to the Mohammed Al Dura hoax, or the Alan Johnston kidnapping hoax, where the BBC kept very quite about Johnston being a muslim

    http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/index/press.php?pr=255

  54. We @ . Ya, there are people who hate the Jews and spread lies and misinformation about them, just as there are people that hate the Muslims and spread lies and misinformation about them.

    I have noticed that on many occasions in mecca, especially during the haj, there are gatherings of thousands of muslim calling for the death of jews, yet we do not see the same at religious festivals of other religions

    We @ And finally, there is a difference between Zionism and Judaism. Being against Zionism is not being against Jws or Judaism. This is acknowledged by those Jews who are themselves anti-Zionists. But unfortunately, any debate about Israel results in the side that is critical of Israel and it;s policy being called anti0Jew, or anti-Semitic. And that is just not true.

    Most people do not know the difference between Zionism and Judaism

    It is interesting to note in the verse below, it does not mention Zionists, but jews

    In Sahih Muslim: Book 041, Number 6985:
    “Judgment Day will come only when the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, until the Jew hides behind the tree and the stone, and the tree and the stone say: ‘Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’ – except for the Gharqad tree, which is a Jewish tree.”

  55. @shiva:

    “Poppycock
    The Qur’an very emphatically demands that Muslims do NOT befriend non-Muslims. However, in some cases Allah permits his followers to lie and use deception against unbelievers who may think that Muslims are their friends.”

    Interesting. Let’s look at the first verse you pointed out, 3:28:

    “YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

    PICKTHAL: Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.

    SHAKIR: Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.

    MOHSIN: Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliyâ (supporters, helpers) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allâh in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them.”

    According to you:

    “Allah is basically telling Muslims that they can pretend to be friends to unbelievers in order to receive their protection, or to protect themselves from them! Here are Ibn Kathir’s comments on this verse:”

    All this verse says is that the Muslims should not discard Muslim help and friendship in favour of non-Muslim help or friendship.

    And when you mentioned the Tafsir, you forgot to mention the following sentence:

    “(And Allah warns you against Himself.) meaning, He warns you against His anger and the severe torment He prepared for those who give their support to His enemies, and those who have enmity with His friends”

    That followed right after where you decided to stop copying and pasting. Now, I don’t see what you find so objectionable about this. All it says is that Muslims should not prefer the friendship/support/help of non-Muslims who are actively hostile to Muslims and seek to attack them to that over Muslims. Let’s apply this teaching in the real world: should we go and seek the protection of North Korea, Iran, the Taliban or Al Qaeda over support from our friends who are NOT hostile to us? Of course not, any sane person would say that one shouldn’t seek help or protection from the person who is actively attacking you or your relative.

    Now, as for Muslims not being allowed being friends with non-Muslims, let’s see what some other Muslims have to say:

    “Islam teaches us that we should be friendly to all people. Islam teaches us that we should deal even with our enemies with justice and fairness. Allah says in the Qur’an in the beginning of the same Surat Al-Ma’dah: [O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.] (Al-Ma’dah 5 :8)

    In another place in the Qur’an, Allah Almighty says:

    [Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them. For Allah loves those who are just. Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for your faith, and drive you out of your homes and support others in driving you out, from turning to them for protection (or taking them as wali). Those who seek their protection they are indeed wrong- doers.] (Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8-9)

    In the verse you quoted, the word “Awliya” is used. It is a plural and its singular is “wali”. The correct translation of the word “”wali”” is not “friend” but it is someone who is very close and intimate. It is also used to mean “guardian, protector, patron, lord and master”.

    In the Qur’an this word is used for God, such as [Allah is the Protector (or Lord and Master) of those who believe. He takes them out from the depths of darkness to light…] (Al- Baqarah 2: 257)

    There are many other references in the Qur’an that give this meaning. The same word is also sometimes used in the Qur’an for human beings, such as [And whosoever is killed unjustly, We have granted his next kin “wali” the authority (to seek judgement or punishment in this case)…] (Al-‘Isra’ 17 :33)

    In his Tafsir, (Qur’an exegesis) Imam Ibn Kathir has mentioned that some scholars say that this verse (i.e. the one you referred to) was revealed after the Battle of Uhud when Muslims had a set back. At that time, a Muslim from Madinah said, “I am going to live with Jews so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah.” And another person said, “I am going to live with Christians so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah.” So Allah revealed this verse reminding the believers that they should not seek the protection from others, but should protect each other. (See Ibn Kathir, Al-Tafsir, vol. 2, p. 68)”

    Source:

    islamonline . net /servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar&cid=1119503543362

    It seems quite clear it is not the Muslims not being allowed to take Jews or Muslims for friends; it is in fact your inability to grasp Arabic that is at fault here. Besides the link I gave, there are tons of sites which have answers to the question whether Muslims and non-Muslims can become friends. Back to the topic however, I am not saying the EDL and Muslims become friends or lovers, I am saying they need to have a dialogue that furthers their cause, instead of harms it.

    Moving on to Taqiyya I am aware that his has become one of the favourite arguments of anti-Islamics used against everything Muslims say and do. Let’s take a look at the argument.

    The argument stems from the verse:

    “Whoso disbelieves in Allah after he has believed—save him who is forced thereto while his heart finds peace in the faith—but such as open their breasts to disbelief, on them is Allah’s wrath; and they shall have a severe punishment (16:107)”

    It is argued that this verse then allows Muslims to freely lie whenever they wish or to further the cause of Islam. Quite clearly this argument is presented by people that are already prejudiced without doing any actual research. The verse says that recanting ones belief in God is not seen favourable in the eyes of God, rather, it angers God, but, if a Muslim uttered any such unbelief relating to his religion during torture or fear of death, they should not be afraid of God’s wrath for recanting their belief in God since they were under severe duress, fearing for their life. That is the main point of the verse: the mercy of God which states that people should not be afraid that they will be punished by God for saying things while they are being tortured and in fear of their life. The point being that anything said under torture will not be seen as valid. And that is an almost universally accepted law as we see by the various international treaties and documents relating to the banning and denunciation of torture as a means of extracting confession.

    The Tafsir that relates to this verse is as follows:

    “(Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief…) [16:106]. Said Ibn ‘Abbas: “This verse was revealed about ‘Ammar ibn Yasir. The idolaters had taken him away along with his father Yasir, his mother Sumayyah, Suhayb [al-Rumi], Bilal [ibn Rabah], Khabbab [ibn al-Aratt] and Salim [the client of Hudhayfah] and tortured them.

    As for Sumayyah, she was tied up between two camels and stabbed with a spear in her female organ. She was told: ‘You embraced Islam for the men’, and was then killed. Her husband Yasir was also killed. They were the first two persons who were killed in Islam.

    As for ‘Ammar, he was coerced to let them hear what they wanted to hear. The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, was told that ‘Ammar has renounced faith, but he said: ‘Never, ‘Ammar is filled with faith from his head to his toes; faith is admixed with his flesh and blood!’

    ‘Ammar then went to see the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, crying. The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, wiped his tears with his own hand and said: ‘if they return to you, let them hear again what you told them’. Then, Allah, exalted is He, revealed this verse”.

    Mujahid said: “This verse was revealed about some Meccans who accepted faith. The Muslims of Medina wrote to them urging them to migrate and told them that they did not consider them part of them unless they migrated. And so they left Mecca intending to migrate to Medina. The Quraysh caught up with them on the way and coerced them to renounce their faith. It is about them that this verse was revealed.”

    Quite interesting. Even though a boy saw his father and mother get tortured and killed in front of him, and their murderers told him to confess that Allah was not real and denounce Islam, which he did, under duress, under threat of immediate death, anti-Islamics would defile the memory of these innocent people by saying that the only thing their deaths mean to Muslims is that they can lie whenever they want to gain the upper hand.

    Leaving that behind us, let’s move on to Taqiyya in English law. What’s that you say? Taqiyya in English Law?!! Yes, that’s right, it can be found in English Law as well, only we call it Duress. To know what duress is, let’s take a look at the wiki on Duress:

    “Duress in English criminal law is a complete common law defence, operating in favour of those who commit crimes because they are forced or compelled to do so by the circumstances, or the threats of another.”

    “Duress or coercion (as a term of jurisprudence) is a possible legal defense, one of four of the most important justification defenses, by which defendants argue that they should not be held liable because the actions that broke the law were only performed out of an immediate fear of injury. Black’s Law Dictionary (6th ed.) defines duress as “any unlawful threat or coercion used… to induce another to act [or not act] in a manner [they] otherwise would not [or would].”

    “In order for duress to qualify as a defense, four requirements must be met:

    1. Threat must be of serious bodily harm or death

    2. Harm threatened must be greater than the harm caused by the crime

    3. Threat must be immediate and inescapable

    4. The defendant must have become involved in the situation through no fault of his or her own

    A person may also raise a duress defense when force or violence is used to compel him to enter into a contract, or to discharge one.”

    So, we see that Taqiyya, since it applies only when someone is being forced to renounce God by threat of violence or death, is nothing more than Duress i.e. the person who is fored to renounce God is forgiven by God for that.

    Interestingly, Taqiyya can be found in other religious laws as well. Pikuach nefesh in Judaism allows all laws and commandments to be broken and or violated as long as a person’s life is saved, this includes lying. There is the Bodhisattva vow in Buddhism which allows a person to lie so save a lie. And then ofcourse we had Rahab in the bible who lied to protect and was blessed by God. We have God in the Old Testament lying to keep the marriage between Moses and Sarah iirc “shalom bayit”, namely a lie to keep the marriage from breaking or bringing hurt to one or the other. And so there are more. But will we ever hear you about any of those? Will we hear you denounce duress in English law? Will we hear you denounce Rahab? Will we hear you denounce Jehovah or shalom bayit? Will we hear you denounce pikuach nefesh? No. Because, although you swallowed Nazi propaganda, that propaganda focused on Muslims. That leads you to obsessively focus on the Muslims and equate them with every negative thing you can find, anywhere.

    Not surprisingly, you have resorted to another regurgitated Nazi argument, namely that the Jews are no friends of the gentiles and only friends of themselves and work together to fight the gentiles and lie to the gentiles. In fact, let’s take a look at Nazi quotes which are surprisingly similar to what you said about Muslims:

    “The fable of the “decent Jew” is not a German fable that has been handed down by our people and therefore something with educational value, but rather it is a shameless lie designed to lull the host people to sleep and appeal to hysterical weaklings.”

    You said that the moderate Muslim is a fairy tale and doesn’t exist. Nazi propaganda says that a “decent Jew” doesn’t exist. And then of course there is the anti-Muslim propaganda that Muslims secretly are in cahoots to destroy non-Muslims through all kinds of means. Well, we have another Nazi quote here that sounds awfully similar:

    “The Jewish spiritual leaders of today, the rabbis, have ensured that to this day the Jewish people is educated in this hatred which the God Jahwe ordained through Moses on Mt. Sinai. The rabbis have made this hatred the foundation of what the Jews call their religion. The Frankfurt Selichoth (a Jewish law book), page 715, includes this prayer that the Jews in their synagogues have used to call down the curse of their God Jahwe on Gentile humanity:

    “Bring the worst wars to the homes of the Gentiles. Infect then with smallpox and punish them in your anger and fury. . . . Destroy their kings through war and take revenge upon them. Drive their heads to the ground in your fury!”

    Very interesting. It seems that nasty piece of propaganda hasn’t died yet, as people like you keep spouting it. You just change the minority you direct it against.

    “Jewry undermines every people and every state that it infiltrates. It feeds as a parasite and a culture-killing worm in the host people. It grows and grows like weeds in the state, the community, and the family and infests the blood of humanity everywhere.

    In brief, that is the pestilential nature of Jewry, against which every people, every state, every nation must, should, and wants to defend itself if it does not want to be the victim of this bloody plague.”

    Gee, where have we heard before that states need to awaken to this virus that is Islam and Muslims need to be dealt with?

    “They come as “foreigners,” as “beggars,” slinking and groveling, with false humility and dishonest respect. Once they have swindled their way to something, they become thieves and bloodsuckers, either openly or in secret. They turn into thieving and murderous Bolshevist hordes for their host peoples. That happens everywhere.”

    Hmm… Didn’t I just hear you say that Muslims show fake respect and false humility because that is what they are commanded to do? And haven’t I heard from anti-Muslim propaganda that Muslims act like this until they are in power, then they become bloodthirsty and violent and demand whatever they want? Well, you weren’t the first my man, it seems the Nazis beat you to that propaganda line.

    “We smile in response, and note that the Jews have never produced a single creative man, but that all great men in every country have been implacable opponents of the Jews”

    Denial of Muslim contribution to civilization. Pretty standard argument found in anti-Muslim propaganda.

    And so there are lots, lots more.

    “We has accused Robert Spencer of being a nazi and a liar, if that was the case then why hasn,t “We” supplied any linx”

    My accusation of him being a liar and a regurgitator of Nazi propaganda does not just focus on his website, although you only have to read his articles on what Muslims do and why they do it (Hint: because that’s just what they are) but also on his other works. His book defending the Crusades, knowing full well the atrocities committed upon the Jews and other non-Christians by the Crusaders. Oh wait, I forgot the Crusades sacked one of their own cities at the end. His website and his books are filled with the type of Nazi propaganda I have quoted above. That is why I do not trust what he says.

    “I have noticed that on many occasions in mecca, especially during the haj, there are gatherings of thousands of muslim calling for the death of jews, yet we do not see the same at religious festivals of other religions”

    Unless you’re a Muslim you wouldn’t know. The only thing I could find was a Debbie Schlussel post on her thoughts about an article in the Tehran Times, where some people during the Hajj called for the US and Israel to stop interfering in other countries, stop invading and occupying countries illegally and to generally just stop killing people in other countries. Surely, you agree with us not just attacking any country randomly and interfering in countries halfway around the world? Aren’t you one of those people who is outraged that the Muslim Brotherhood or Hamas has so much control in Europe, apparently?

    “It is interesting to note in the verse below, it does not mention Zionists, but jews”

    Ah, the Hadith: a collection of sayings written down 100s of years after the actual dialogue took place, in a a-friend-of-a-friend-of-my-sisters-brother-in-law’s-cousin-bla-bla style. I’m not saying the Hadith are untrue, but I put as much trust in the authenticity of the Hadith as I do in the authenticity of the Bible: some of it might be true, some of it is false. How do you distinguish between what’s true and false? You’ve given us 1 Hadith while there are other Hadith demanding Muslims not to wage war on anyone who doesn’t wage war against them. Even the Quran seems to demand that. Which one is right? Oh, and:

    *Insert Bible/Torah verse about killing non-believers here*.

    See, easy!

  56. We @ You’ve given us 1 Hadith while there are other Hadith demanding Muslims not to wage war on anyone who doesn’t wage war against them.

    Yeah, like those brave moslems who raped the murdered the school chilldren who where waging war against them at Beslam.

    Yeah, like those brave moslems who raped over 200,000 women, and murdered 3 million people in Bangladesh

    Yeah, like those brave moslems who hacked to death 800,000 non believers in Indonesia in 1965, and later invaded two other nations

    Yeah, like those brave moslems who bombed and starved the people of Biafra, leaving millions dead

    Yeah, like those brave moslems who ere commiting genocide in Sduan

    Yeah, like those brave moslems who gassed thousands in Iraq in the Al Anfal campaign ( ironically named after a chapter in the Koran) prior the the Iraqi war

    We @ I’m not saying the Hadith are untrue, but I put as much trust in the authenticity of the Hadith as I do in the authenticity of the Bible: some of it might be true, some of it is false. How do you distinguish between what’s true and false?

    A good way to distinguish between what’s true and false is to look at the actions of moslems

    On This Day
    February 27, 1975: The June 2 German terrorist group kidnapped Peter Lorenz, a prominent Christian Democratic Union Party mayoral candidate. Although the group was not Muslim, any terrorist willing to kidnap and kill, especially Christians and Jews, was a friend of the Islamic states. The terrorists were granted amnesty in Aden, South Yemen. The South Yemen Foreign Ministry assured the terrorists the right to stay in full freedom and without limitation in Aden.

    February 27, 1977: Nine people were injured when a time bomb went off in a hotel in Alexandria,Egypt. The bomb was planted by an Egyptian working for Libyan intelligence.

    February 27, 1981: Two Iraqi diplomats were murdered while they were on their way to work in Lebanon. They were shot from a passing car by jihadists armed with machine guns. The victimized car was generally used by the Iraqi ambassador, Abdel Razzak Laftah. Recognizing that Lebanon is principally Shia, he had just recently had asked the Lebanese government for added security for the embassy and other Iraqi facilities due to the war between Iran and Iraq.

    February 27, 1985: In Morocco, a West German plane carrying three explorers on a scientific expedition was downed by Muslim Polisario terrorists based out of the Western Sahara. There were no survivors. Polisario said that the plane was similar to reconnaissance planes used by the Moroccan armed forces.

    February 27, 1988: A bomb was detonated in a Pakistani bazaar in Thal. The blast killed five people and wounded 11. Three of the dead and nine of the injured were Afghan refugees.

    February 27, 1991: In Tunisia, Abu al-Abbas assassinated the Dutch diplomat Robert Jan Akkerman at his home in Tunis. According to a PLO spokesperson, the gunmen were planning to kill 30 dinner guests, many of whom were diplomats. Akkerman surprised the gunmen who fled after killing him. In carrying out the attack, the terrorists had hoped to condemn the presence of American and European infidels in Saudi Arabia.

    February 27, 1991: The allied forces in Kuwait and Iraq suspended military operations against Iraq. They had achieved a horrid victory. The world’s second largest oil reserve was returned to the emirs, the Islamic warlords who were using their ill-gotten gain to destroy America religiously, politically, financially, and by way of terrorism.

    February 27, 1994: A German tourist was stabbed in the back by a Palestinian woman in Jordan.

    February 27, 1995: Khidir Abd-al-Abbas Hamza, allegedly an exiled Iraqi nuclear scientist, was kidnapped in a suburb of Athens, Greece soon after revealing information about Iraq’s nuclear weapons program. The Iraqi intelligence service, Mukhabarat, was suspected in the murder. Iraqi officials, however, denied kidnapping the man and claimed not to have known of the scientist. Only time would prove them right. Iraq did not have a significant or viable nuclear program. What little had been done in this regard was abandoned in 1991.

    February 27, 1996: Another Islamic suicide bomber detonated his explosive pack of nails, metal balls, and rat poison at a hitchhiking post in Ashkelon. One IDF soldier was killed and 34 others were injured, many seriously.

    Hamas laced their explosive vests with rat poison and tacks so their victims would be lacerated with wounds which would continue hemorrhaging.

    February 27, 2001: In Kashmir, the Army of Muhammad wounded ten people when Muslim militants threw gasoline into a crowd near the Pappi Land Hotel and ignited them on fire.

    February 27, 2001: Palestinians opened attacked the West Bank settlement of Pesagot. And they fired into an Israeli car as it passed a military roadblock north of Tulkarm.

    February 27, 2001: Three Israelis were injured in a shooting attack on the Atarot bypass road. The fire came from three men on a hill overlooking the road, and the assailants fled in the direction of Rafat village.

    On This Day Since 9/11

    February 27, 2002: Tangwari, India. The Mujahideen pull a man from a passenger bus and execute him by the roadside.

    February 27, 2002: Ilorin, Nigeria. Eid-el-Kabir celebrants kill three Christians.

    February 27, 2003: Karachi, Pakistan. Sunni terrorists kill two Shiites in a shooting attack at their coffee shop.

    February 27, 2003: Argun, Chechnya. Three Russian soldiers killed by Jihadi car-bomb in Chechnya.

    February 27, 2003: Joharabad, Pakistan. A man is gunned down in a sectarian attack

    February 27, 2004: Lahav, Israel. Palestinian gunmen open fire on a civilian vehicle, killing two young Jewish parents of a two-year old daughter

    February 27, 2004: Boukerdane, Algeria. Two off-duty soldiers are executed by Islamic extremists after being stopped at a fake checkpoint

    February 27, 2004: Beerwah, India. Militant Muslims fire on a political rally with RPGs. One woman is killed and two other women hurt.

    February 27, 2004: Dhaka, Bangladesh. An author and scholar barely survives a brutal assassination attempt by Islamists wielding machetes and knives.

    February 27, 2004, The 2004 SuperFerry 14 bombing resulted in the sinking of the ferry SuperFerry 14 and the deaths of 116 people in the Philippines’ deadliest terrorist attack and the world’s deadliest terrorist attack at sea.
    The 10,192-ton ferry sailed out of Manila with about 900 passengers and crew. A television set containing an 8-pound (4 kilograms) TNT bomb had been placed on board. 90 minutes out of port, the bomb exploded. 63 people were killed immediately and 53 were missing and presumed dead.

    February 27, 2005: Souk El-Khemis, Algeria. Two people in a small Algerian town are killed when religious fundamentalists set off a bomb.

    February 27, 2005: Mosul, Iraq. Car bomber kills eight people and Jihad gunmen kill another four in a separate incident, also in Mosul

    .February 27, 2006: Ridya, Saudi Arabia. Two Filipino oil workers are killed when al-Qaeda militants open fire on Saudi security forces.

    February 27, 2006: Narathiwat, Thailand. Two villagers are gunned down by Islamic terrorists in separate attacks.

    February 27, 2006: Iraq, Baghdad. Four people are killed in a mortar attack and three more die in a roadside bombing near Kirkuk. Four bound bodies are found elsewhere.

    February 27, 2006: Baqubah, Iraq. Gunmen kill the owner of a glaze shop and an employee

    February 27, 2006: India, Sopore. The Mujahideen gun down a civilian on the street.

    February 27, 2007: Baghdad, Iraq. At least sixteen people are murdered in various attacks by Islamic terrorists.

    February 27, 2007: Wagoora, India. A man who was shot by the Mujahideen a week earlier succumbs to his injuries.

    February 27, 2007: Jandola, Pakistan. A teacher is abducted and beheaded by militant Muslims, who then dump his body in a sack
    .
    February 27, 2007: Ain Rich, Algeria. Three security officers are killed in separate attacks by Islamic fundamentalists.

    February 27, 2007: al-Baaj, Iraq. A suicide bomber walks into the reception area of a cement company and kills four other people.

    February 27, 2007: Gaza, Pal. Auth. Three prostitutes are gunned down in suspected honor killings by religious fundamentalists.

    February 27, 2007: Mosul, Iraq. Seven people are murdered when a suicide truck bomber detonates along a city street.

    February 27, 2007: Bagram, Afghanistan. A Fedayeen suicide bomber blows apart two-dozen innocent lives.

    February 27, 2008: Sderot, Israel. Hamas kills an Israeli student with a rocket barrage on a college campus.

    February 27, 2008: Mosul, Iraq. Two civilians are killed in a Jihad bomb blast.

    February 27, 2008: Hamdaniyah, Iraq. A university student is shot to death by suspected fundamentalists.

    February 27, 2008: Kandahar, Afghanistan. Two local soldiers are gunned down in an ambush by religious extremists.

    February 27, 2008: Yala, Thailand. A local soldier is killed in a bombing ambush by Islamic militants.

    February 27, 2008: Narathiwat, Thailand. Muslim gunmen murder a 60-year-old man sitting in this truck.

    February 27, 2008: Pulwama, India. Two local cops are massacred in a Mujahideen ambush. Elsewhere, an 11-year-old boy is severely injured in a bomb attack.

    • @shiva:

      “Yeah, like those brave moslems who raped the murdered the school chilldren who where waging war against them at Beslam.”

      Well, why dont you say the same about those brave Christians that carried out one of the worst massacres in Europe since the Holocaust at Srebrenica? O wait, now you’re probably going to justify that by the whole war etc and blame it on the Muslims, and you wont ever apply that mindset to the whole Chechen conflict.

      This is what war does and this is why war is the geatest tool radicalisation has. You want to show us this, while the Muslims fighting in Iraq show their supporters the videos and pictures of the 1000s of dead and injured children as a result of our bombings and further campaigns. This is why our participation in an unjust, illegal war needs to stop now.

      *Laundry list of “Musllim terrorist attacks”*

      You know whats so sad? Its not the fact that you take that list from a website called Prophet of Doom. Its not the fact that you dont have an actual source for each of them providing us with the actual reason. Its the fact you want to paint it as “Muslim terrorism”. You see, what sites like Prophet of Doom and Religion of Peace do, is take Muslims committing crimes and then portray that as Muslims doing what Islam commands them, instead of just calling it what we and Muslims call it: crime. These sites then also take anything done by Muslims during and in war, and portray it again as Islam’s commandments instead of telling us that it’s what happens in war.

      Here is my challenge to you then shiva/Hugh/June: make a list of all the assaults, batteries, gang attacks and murders in the Christian countries, carried out by Christians, then call that Christians doing what the Bible demands. This includes rape of women, killing of wives and kids, gang warfare and attacks and murders by the numerous Christian identity and White Supremacist groups. Are you willing to do that? No? Thought so. But when Muslims commit these crimes, suddenly its all because of Islam. You know, the Nazis blamed Judaism for the fact that there were a number of bankers and politicians at that time. They blamed them being Jewish for the Weimar Republic, for the depression, for COmmunism and the numerous killed there, etc etc. Unfortunately, you continue in their footsteps.

  57. Hmm, Richard, it seems my reply to shiva/Hugh/June is not showing up. Has it gone to the spam folder again?

  58. Never mind Richard I think I got it now.

    Anyway, I think the EDL contingent has left. Which is unfortunate, because I really think they were actually willing to listen to criticism and learn from it. If any of them are still watching:

    The EDL has a chance to do what it claims it stands for. To do that it needs to stop allying itself with groups like SIOE and people like Geller and actually look at the Muslim community, with Muslims. Stamping out radicalisation is not as easy as a few marches here and there when ourselves are carrying out the campaign for radicalisation with the Iraq war and the way our media portrays Muslims. I believe that there are members of the EDL genuinely not racist and or fascist, but the things the EDL stands for the people that support it, it will continue to be labelled as such.

  59. @ we – I’m still watching :)

    “make a list of all the assaults, batteries, gang attacks and murders in the Christian countries, carried out by Christians, then call that Christians doing what the Bible demands”.

    I’m sure the list of worldwide atrocities carried out by Christians and other denominations would indeed be extensive. However, more to the point, a comparative list of crimes specifically carried out in the name of the Bible/God and those in the name of Allah/Koran would, I believe be heavily weighted towards the latter.

    • Well, I dont think thats true. You see, even when Bin Laden declared his infamous war against the US, he made it clear that the reasons for that were continued US support for Israel, US invasions of the Middle East and stuff like that.

      The thing is, when you take the crimes and attacks committed by Muslims, they usually give their reason as being some kind of retaliation for some attack or invasion of some kind. Sure, they use some religious language, but thats like us saying Jesus or God in our every day life and using any form of religious language. Do we necessarily have to believe we are carrying out what we are doing because of religion just because we utter the words “By God” or “Jesus” or something like that? Nah. Unfortuantely, you have groups that make big bucks off of this when they blame everything Muslims do on Islam and whatnot.

  60. We @ Well, I dont think thats true. You see, even when Bin Laden declared his infamous war against the US, he made it clear that the reasons for that were continued US support for Israel, US invasions of the Middle East and stuff like that.

    Not quite right, Bin Laden,s main concern was US troops being based on Saudi soil, which is a grave violation of mohammed,s final command

    • He gave more than one reason. One of those was the presence of foreign military near Muslim holy sites. Before you rag on that, please tell me where the Saudi or Pakistani military bases are near the Vatican or the White House or any other Western capital or religious site.

  61. The US are in Saudi, protecting Saudi interests from Iran and from the pre-war Iraq

    Now, who do we believe, the islamists, who are waging a holy war and telling us they are doing so in the name of allah, or halal hippies such as yourself

  62. We @ Well, why dont you say the same about those brave Christians that carried out one of the worst massacres in Europe since the Holocaust at Srebrenica

    The false interpretation of “Srebrenica” as part of an ongoing Serb project of “genocide” was used to incite the NATO war against Yugoslavia, which devastated a country and left behind a cauldron of hatred and ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. The moslems are currently engaged in a far more murderous and destructive wars in Sudan, Israel, Thailand, Indonesia Kashmir ,Somalia, Lebanon, Pakistan,etc etc. In this context, the Western lamentations that inflate the Srebrenic massacre into “the greatest mass genocide since Nazi times” are a diversion from the real existing genocide, which is the work of maniacal moslem warlords and clerics, in the ongoing imposition of islam/sharia, to achieve a world caliphate

  63. […] and Unite Against Fascism on the Police Posted on March 21, 2010 by Richard Bartholomew February: An English Defence League statement denounces alleged police bias in the wake of a protest in […]

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