• First published in 2004 as Bartholomew’s Notes on Religion (BNOR).

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Charlie Flowers and English Nationalism

Following my posts on Charlie Flowers and the campaigns of harassment conducted by him and his gang of “Cheerleaders”, a post on Talk Islam by “johnpi” claims to reveal “Cyber-stalker Charlie Flowers’ English Defence League connection”. The author cites me in his piece, but the article doesn’t quite deliver the goods. We’re shown a picture taken from Facebook showing Flowers posing with members of the English Democrat Party behind a St George’s Flag (there’s also a glimpse of the “Cheerleader” who hides behind the pseudonym “Shooter Kirpachi”); but to jump from that to the EDL requires an unsustainable imaginative leap:

The flag in the picture is the St. George’s Cross, which EDL supporters fly at their rallies. The EDL is a right-wing political group with nativist/white supremacist leanings that appeared in England last year.

The obvious problem here is that just because the EDL uses the St George’s Flag, it hardly follows that anyone who makes use of a St George’s Flag must be an EDL sympathizer.

Also in the picture are two other persons, both of whom actively interact with the “Cheerleadered” site. One of these is Bill Baker, who organised an abortive “anti-Shariah” protest outside a mosque in Harrow in August. The Harrow Times reported:

Bill Baker, the organisor, said: “It’s been cancelled. They’ve made assurances that sharia courts will not be held in the building. If they go back on that then obviously we will be allowed to protest.”

He added: “If it’s only going to be used for the community then good luck to them.”

A protest by the EDL in Birmingham on August 10 resulted in violent clashes between members and anti-fascist campaigners attempting to break up the demonstration.

Mr Baker told the Harrow Times ties with the EDL and Casuals United, which formed in the aftermath, were broken after the skirmishes in Birmingham.

…”We are opposed to extremism on both sides of the political agenda.”

(A protest did in fact go ahead, but this was organised by a different group)

The other person is Darren Marsh, who goes on about he “fucking hates the UAF” but who has no EDL link either [UPDATE: He has also informed me that he is in UKIP rather than the EDP].

Certainly, looking over Facebook myself it is somewhat strange that Alan Lake – a businessman who has links with the EDL – should be a fan of Flowers’ music band The Fighting Cocks, but it’s impossible to say what this signifies. It’s also perhaps of interest that a year ago I received a comment from one of the “Cheerleaders” indicating that they had been in contact with Paul Ray but they had disliked his use of the word “Paki”; Ray went on to found of the EDL, although he has since been marginalised. Both Ray and the “Cheerleaders” have also had contacts with Glen Jenvey.

But what about the English Democratic Party? The author at Talk Islam finds a report in which an ex-member accuses it being more extreme than it appears to be, and the EDP’s website currently showcases an interminable modern folk-song which includes lines opining that “long-term immigration” is part of a plot by the “British ruling class” to “crush the English nation”. However, overall I’d judge that it’s more the case that Flowers makes those he associates with look bad, rather than other way round.

A second post on Talk Islam has the detail that

After I published a mocking post about them last year, the Cheerleaders – or the individual who pretends to be the group – threatened several Talk Islam contributors and published their home addresses online. They (or he) also sent mail to at least one TI contributor’s house.

27 Responses

  1. hmmmm…. well – I just picked up on all this…not that I’m particularly interested as most of this seems to be a combination of second-hand bullshit; hearsay and chinese whispers, but…

    I met a very pleasant chap named Charlie Flowers once at a musical performance by the group called The Fighting Cocks… and seemed to me to be a highly erudite chap with a wide mix of friends of all races, creeds and colours and was utterly charming, to both myself and my compaions.

    The band themselves kicked a fair amount of what is proverbially known in the vernacular as ‘arse’ and there seemed very little evidence of anything that might even be vaguely described as ‘white supremacist’ behaviour!

    On the whole he seemed an extremely well adjusted young man – though it might be said he did display what one might consider a rather highly developed sense of humour…

    I am finding it difficult to equate the eloquent young chap with the extremely diverse set of friends and followers from all manner of ethnic and religious backgrounds who seemed intent on doing nothing more than communicating his zest for life in the inimitable way that persons hailing from the good county of Essex do, with the utterly mealy-mouthed and shit-mongering fabrication of an extremist white supremacist that you seems to be attempting in your own small way to promote on this obscure and no doubt oft ridiculed ‘expose’ blog that you are attempting to create in order to validate your own, rather purile – it seems, existance….

    Tell me, please…. do you not get out much these days?

    • I never suggested he’s racist or any sort of “white supremicist”. However, he does get off on sending threats against someone’s family, and he gets his stupid friends (hiding behind fake names) to do the same thing. That’s not a nice person, however “charming” he may have been to you.

  2. It does rather strike me that if the writing of an “obscure blog” denotes a “peurile existence” and a lack of “getting out much”…. How much more puerile and insular must the existence be of those who would read and post comments on said blog?

  3. Hello Richard and just a few notes-
    can I ask, have you ever met or corresponded with Charlie and has he ever insulted you, or threatened you? I’ve known him for over 10 years and that’s not his style. He’s not the kind of guy to “get off” on threats, as you have stated, and so far as I know him, he’s also not the kind of guy who would get people to do things for him. I’ve met some of the Hur al Ayn girls and they are definitely people who do their own thing.
    Anyway good luck with your blog and comments

    Baz

    • He’s sent various threats to Tim Ireland, as you can see from following the links I’ve given, and he clearly identifies with the cowardly harassment of campaign by the anonymous “Cheerleaders”. What kind of sick person would want to be associated with putting someone’s home address on-line and making them fearful for their family’s safety? It’s shameful, whether or not he happens to be a friend of yours.

  4. OK, this is the stalker Tim Ireland we’re talking about right, the guy who phones Iain Dale 40 times a day and makes Nadine Dorries fear for her safety? Are you friends with this man Richard, and if so, why?

    • Oh right, we’ve gone from not knowing that Flowers does this kind of thing to the idea that Flowers is justified in doing it. Tim has never made Dorries “fear for her safety”. Don’t you think the police would take an interest in threats against an MP? He’s had an on-line spat with her certainly, and with Dale – but these are both public figures, and Tim has never stooped to publishing home details, making threats of violence, or threatening someone’s family.

      Flowers and his “Cheerleader” friends have used these spats to rationalise their harassment of Tim, just as Dominic Wightman tried to create an air of a political disagreement when Tim posted evidence that Wightman was liar – which was when the serious harassment against Tim began.

      If the “Cheerleaders” think they are justified, why do they cower behind fake names?

  5. Good post Bart. Any idiot out there who would put an innocent family through this deserves to be called out for the bully he is. If these Cheers would just stick to their online campaign against Tim, no one would really care. It is the fact that they involved the mans family, by posting their address online in the hope that some nutter finds it and pays them a visit, that puts these idiots in the cyber bully bracket. Im amazed at how these other posters here seem to approve of striking fear into an innocent family like this.

  6. Richard; Ireland certainly did make Nadine Dorries fear for her safety. I could also mention his harassment of Andrew Gilligan and Paul Staines, to name but two. So what is your position on that?
    Ireland has cornered the market in online bullying campaigns; it was only a matter of time before someone grew tired of his shtick.

    Also, just out of interest: have you ever actually met any of the people you write about, i.e. the Hur al Ayn, the TFC, EDL, English Democrats?

    • You’re seriously suggesting that Flowers and his friends were moved to act because they thought Tim was being too harsh in his disputes with the likes of Dorries, Gilligan and Staines? Come off it.

      I nearly arranged to meet Flowers once, but it was obvious it would be a waste of time – it would just be him showing off and feeding me piles of BS.

    • ‘Barry’, there is nothing I have done to anyone that is anywhere near the scale or style of these attacks, and there’s nothing that justifies them.

      But before I address what you allege here in any detail, would you care to declare an interest?

    • “Also, just out of interest: have you ever actually met any of the people you write about, i.e. the Hur al Ayn, the TFC, EDL, English Democrats?”

      A bunch of kids with nothing better to do than align themselves with a group of people claiming to represent good and fighting evil. Theres no need to hang out with them. Their intentions are clear. They say they fight Islamic extremism, yet are surprisingly silent on one of the biggest reasons for that extremism: our foreign policy. When will these people chant and march against people that took us to an illegal war? Never. When will these people campaign against us providing support for dictators worldwide who oppress their people? Never. When will these people rally against us overthrowing regimes? Never. Because they dont care about rooting out extremism.

      All they want is to march against and stop Muslims doing what they are legally entitled to do in this country. They dont care about extremism, they just want to hate a group. It’s just another predictable evolution of the European hatred for anything that can be defined as “not of here”. Unfortunately for them, their “inspiration” was forcefully eradicated from Europe and any repeat will be illegal. Not to mention the group they are now trying to marginalize is a group who will actually respond should they be harmed.

  7. […] Comments We on Charlie Flowers and English NationalismWe on Background of Mining Company in Bizarre “Third Temple” ClaimAnthony Hogg on […]

  8. So, Richard: you’re confirming that you write all these pieces on people without ever contacting them to check facts? I have heard that the Black-Eyed Girls invited you to several of their soirees but you, for whatever reason, wouldn’t respond.
    Also, if you’re going to write about The Fighting Cocks links with the Hur al-Ayn and EDL figures, will you also be writing about their work with MDI, or the Muslim festival they run?

    • How do you “confirm facts” with people who hide behind fake IDs and have created a smokescreen of pseudo-associations? Even in the flesh, why should I trust anything they say? All I’ve ever claimed to do is to keep an eye on their web presence (and sometimes emails sent to me) and to draw some probabalities from what I’ve found. I’ve never suggested that I have access to special information beyond that, and I’ve certainly never made anything up. If Flowers and his friends want people to have a more complete picture of their activities they can remedy that themselves. But given their acts of illegal harassement I doubt they’ll be too forthcoming.

  9. What “pseudo-associations” are these then? I’m not suggesting you’re totally making things up but you seem to be leaping to conclusions framed from a certain world-view. Having known Charlie and his cousins for a certain amount of time now, personally I find them to be among the most honest people I know. Sometimes Charlie can be a little too direct and aggressive, it must be said. But generally, if that lot invite you to something, it means they have nothing to hide and want to put you in the picture. I’m not saying they’re angels but they’re definitely not the demons your blog is making them out to be.

    atb
    Baz

    • There’s those silly US intelligence-type links on the FC website, and the whole overlap between names like “Cheerleaders”, “Hur al-Ayn”, “P-Group” etc. The idea is to create an air of mystery and intrigue, not to clarify the situation.

      Fact – Flowers and his friends tried to force Tim Ireland out of his house by publishing his home address widely for no remotely good reason, knowing full well that Glen Jenvey had been going around calling Tim a paedophile and that his enemies include BNP types. Suppose some nutter had gone round with a petrol bomb? Flowers couldn’t give a damn about that. There was also a direct death threat from the “Cheerleaders”. And don’t give me BS that this was all about protecting a female MP that Flowers unaccountably felt Tim was being too hard on.

  10. The only threat of violence I have heard about is from the Fighting Cocks to the violent jihadis of al-Muhajiroun, for which, apparently, you reported the FCs to the police. It makes me wonder which side you’re on.
    Also, in the interests of balance, will you be commenting on the Cheerleaders’ forthcoming Islamic events and their links with people like Abdullah al-Andalusi? I’m not holding my breath.

    • I see. Send out death threats against someone who is reprehensible, and anyone who objects to such conduct must be “on the side” of the reprehenisble person. I take it then that was the point of sending the threat to me in the first place? Or was it just some pointless showing off?

      Bit of an insult to the intelligence, isn’t it?

      I may write about Cheerleader involvement with Islamic groups if evidence of such activities is provided: but from what I’ve seen, it’s more likey to make the Islamic groups look bad than make the “Cheerleader” thugs and bullies look good.

    • I don’t get it, who is this Abdullah al Andalusi, and what’s wrong with having links to him?

  11. Well this is what concerns me Richard. The Cheerleaders were involved in defending Harrow mosque from SIOE, just to name one instance, and they were photographed doing it, but you didn’t see fit to mention it. This is just one example of many but you only seem to comment on examples that fit your Weltanschauung. So, here’s a challenge for you. There are many Islamic groups that actively support the Cheerleaders, and the Fighting Cocks are curating an Islamic festival this weekend. Why don’t you comment on it after the event?

    atb
    Baz

    • So you are saying that there are Muslim groups who know about the Cheerleaders’ connection to groups like the EDL and other ant-Islamic groups who consistently portray the Muslim Prophet as a looter, paedophile, warmonger and terrorist and still continue to support them? I doubt it. Maybe the Cheerleaders should tell them first who they are associated with and what those groups have to say about their Prophet. Then well see which groups continue to support the Cheerleaders.

  12. Well “We”, maybe you should look at their groups yourself. Are you based in the UK, or abroad? Things are a bit different here.

    • Im in the UK. Ive looked at the Cheerleaders page. Ive also seen the connections to EDL and the way those people go about talking about Islam and their Prophet. I dont think Muslim groups would support the Cheerleaders because of the connection to EDL and others that are just downright offensive about one of the most highly regarded persons in Islam. In my view the Cheerleaders and their ilk just come down to any Muslim event or any protest relating to Islam without support from the Muslims, or they are supported by some who dont know the people the Cheerleaders keep as friends.

      All in all this seems to be a very unsavoury way of conducting a group that calls itself “Pro-Muslim”. But the Cheerleaders are not my main concern about this whole affair. What gets me and most people here is the threats against an innocent family. You want to go after Wightman? Ok, but keep it to him alone and dont make threats about killing him. Leave his family out of it. I am also more concerned about the so called Vigil network and Jenvey posting fake messages to sell stories about “Islamic Extremism”. How long has he been doing that? Did he have help? Who helped him? Have all these people been doing it for years or not? What exactly is going on? Those are the questions I would like answers too but alas I may not get them seeing as how Bart is now, falsely I might add, being accused of passing information to Jihadists. I take it that is because of his e-mails to Bukhari. Now, Bukhari isnt the brightest but to equate him to actual “Jihadists” is like equating people like Fisher and others to “Jihadists”. They just say stupid stuff every now and then.

  13. […] news in August, when he announced plans for a protest outside a mosque in Harrow – which he then called off when he was satisfied that no “shariah court” was being planned for the site (a […]

  14. […] racists, and members of the BNP, the BFF and the individuals connected to the increasingly sinister English Democrats; which may have something to do with the heavily biased, and suspiciously uniform, reporting of […]

  15. […] meanwhile, distances himself from the EDL’s Guramit Singh and from Bill Baker (Flowers was filmed holding the megaphone when Singh made his notorious comment about Muslims […]

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